Author Topic: What Can We do About Early Blocking During Onside KO's ? (videos) (Read 27873 times)

TXMike · « **on:** December 28, 2011, 03:56:58 AM »

2 games yesterday and 2 onside KO's with apparent early blocks by Team A. The good news is apparently we zebras are once again the only ones who even realize something was not right. Perhaps thanks are due to commentators who perpetuate the notion that blocking Team B off of the ball is a good play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXgpi5NxdrI

http://youtu.be/ohr_2dqTbuk

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »

Pretty clear Illegal Block fouls by K on both of these. On both of these plays, K gets a major advantage with the blocks by "taking out" a R player who is potentially getting in position to secure the ball. Also, pretty clear that current mechanics don't work real well when trying to identify early blocks by K since these are pretty obvious and right in the area of the ball where primary focus should be.

IMO the focus is so strong on identifying #1 - ball contact by K or R , and #2 when the ball has traveled the required 10 yards, that the illegal blocks get regularly missed. Not sure best way to address this problem, but certainly it should be stressed in the pregame discussion that K illegal blocks are just as important as ball touching and the ball going 10 yards as is shown in these two clips.

kentholm · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:09:48 AM »

There are 4 officials (B, U, F and S) on the two free kick restraining lines. Most onside kicks are intentionally kicked to one side or the other. Our crew handles it this way ... the two officials that are away from the direction of the ball are generally looking for illegal blocks and the two officials that are on the side where the ball is headed are looking for touching of the ball. You always need to anticipate an onside kick.

The illegal block in the 2nd game was blatant. The ball was still a couple of yards from the receiver's restraining line when the block was made.

We all need to know the rules. C'mon man.

Etref · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:14:44 AM »

In the second video you also have a player from the sideline (#13) come running onto the field with on helmet to celebrate....................

TXMike · « **Reply #4 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:15:00 AM »

I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.

kentholm · « **Reply #5 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:44:56 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 28, 2011, 08:15:00 AM

I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.

Agreed ... we all can be looking at the wrong spot at the wrong time. Onside kicks are problematic because there are usually a lot of players all bunched up trying to recover a ball and it's tough when you're on the sideline having to look through all of that. That said, you have to pre-game this stuff and be disciplined as to where you look. Especially on the one in the second game - that block was several yards beyond the 40. Of course if all 4 officials are looking at the ball for potential touching then that illegal block is easy to miss ...

Rulesman · « **Reply #6 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:00:21 AM »

Maybe it's time to think about moving the free kick lines 15 yards apart to spread out the carnage caused by onside kicks. Then again, if it weren't for the kicking game, ANYBODY could officiate football.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #7 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:01:06 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 28, 2011, 08:15:00 AM

I refuse to believe guys at this level do not know this basic rule. I equally as strongly believe though that guys at any level can be looking in the wrong spot at the wrong time and miss what they should be seeing.

I would agree that most officials know the rules regarding when it is legal to block, but we regularly see the illegal blocks that occur beyond the 10 yard restraining line missed. There appears to be a mental mindset that anything beyond the restraining line is OK, so our focus is tunnel visioned to that 10 yard "protected" area. We need to emphasize this in pregame and discuss how we can avoid overlooking these kinds of blocks.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #8 on:** December 28, 2011, 09:57:57 AM »

Change the d@mn rule! The NCAA is the only rule set with this blocking restriction. There are no special restrictions at all in FED rules on blocking on an onside kick, and in the NFL, blocks beyond the receiving team's restraining line are legal regardless of the position of the ball.

The latter is the way the play seems to be officiated even in the NCAA. I fully understand that it SHOULDN'T be, and you are asking for the the way to call the current rule. But we have seen numerous examples of it not being properly enforced by both NCAA 7 man crews as well as Texas 5 man crews.

I'm not saying improper enforcements are the only reason to change the rule, however the NCAA rule seems too restrictive in light of the other rule sets. Allow blocking beyond the restraining line.

Etref · « **Reply #9 on:** December 28, 2011, 10:26:40 AM »

Blue, it is not blocking beyond the restraining lines, but blocking before they are eligible to touch the ball. In effect, you have kick catch interference by the kicking team.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #10 on:** December 28, 2011, 11:10:59 AM »

Quote from: RickWts on December 28, 2011, 10:26:40 AM

Blue, it is not blocking beyond the restraining lines, but blocking before they are eligible to touch the ball. In effect, you have kick catch interference by the kicking team.

I understand the rule, and again, it's only in the NCAA that such a rule exists.

In the NFL, you can block a receiving team player that is beyond the restraining line regardless of the position of the ball. In the NCAA, it's the position of the ball that determines whether such a block is legal or not. Take out the position of the ball as the issue, and focus on the location of the block. Allow blocks beyond the restraining line regardless of the position of the ball and the vast majority of the enforcement problems go away.

Etref · « **Reply #11 on:** December 28, 2011, 02:28:54 PM »

I think in both of these videos, KCI could have easily been called.

BankerRef · « **Reply #12 on:** December 28, 2011, 02:38:33 PM »

Quote from: RickWts on December 28, 2011, 02:28:54 PM

I think in both of these videos, KCI could have easily been called.

Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.

Rulesman · « **Reply #13 on:** December 28, 2011, 02:40:46 PM »

Quote from: BankerRef on December 28, 2011, 02:38:33 PM

Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.

You beat me to it Banker.

BankerRef · « **Reply #14 on:** December 28, 2011, 02:58:49 PM »

Can't let an opportunity to correct Rick pass by. They don't happen very often.

Etref · « **Reply #15 on:** December 28, 2011, 03:46:23 PM »

y

Quote from: BankerRef on December 28, 2011, 02:38:33 PM

Rick, can't apply that here at all. There is no KCI after the ball hits the ground.

Yeah, my bad!

Did not have my thinking cap on straight

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #16 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:14:55 PM »

Quote from: RickWts on December 28, 2011, 03:46:23 PM

y

Yeah, my bad!

Did not have my thinking cap on straight

Too busy watching the blocks.

110 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:15:25 PM »

Quote from: Atlanta Blue on December 28, 2011, 09:57:57 AM

Change the d@mn rule! The NCAA is the only rule set with this blocking restriction.

Not quite. Canadian amateur rules also forbid blocking by the kicking team.

To me, this is a mechanics issue, pure and simple. The near-side restraining-line official must have ball/touch, and the rest of the crew should have all other interactions.

Atlanta Blue · « **Reply #18 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:24:24 PM »

Quote from: Livin' in the pit on December 28, 2011, 04:15:25 PM

Not quite. Canadian amateur rules also forbid blocking by the kicking team.

Sorry, I never think about Canadian rules. Given that you have a 55 yard lines, 3 downs and rougues, is it really the same game?

Wingman · « **Reply #19 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:46:02 PM »

Personally, I think the rule is OK as is, but mechanics need a hard look in the off season to see what can be altered.
One can hope that some of the crews for games coming up have seen what they might be up against mechanics wise and do a little more in their pregame.

Texas HS can alter the rule if they like to make things easier on officials.

TXMike · « **Reply #20 on:** December 28, 2011, 04:56:20 PM »

Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU

mccormicw · « **Reply #21 on:** December 28, 2011, 05:08:21 PM »

That is a fine job. It does bring up a good point though. How many times do we hear that we shouldn't call fouls that occur all the way across the field? I personally think getting the call right is the most important thing but where do we draw the line?

MJT · « **Reply #22 on:** December 28, 2011, 05:46:00 PM »

Quote from: kentref on December 28, 2011, 08:09:48 AM

the two officials that are away from the direction of the ball are generally looking for illegal blocks and the two officials that are on the side where the ball is headed are looking for touching of the ball.

This is what we do as also and it works well. I buddy of mine working the S in a FCS playoff game came all the way across the field to confirm that they had an illegal block on an onside kick. I believe the F had a flag down as well, but much easier for the backside officials to watch for the blocks. You must see the block and then immediate find the ball if you cannot see it with your peripheral vision.

JasonTX · « **Reply #23 on:** December 29, 2011, 09:50:25 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 28, 2011, 04:56:20 PM

Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU

It's no fair. Those guys have obviously been educated by Refstripes. The guys missing these calls need to come here to be set straight.

Too bad there wasn't a microphone so the announcers would know what is going on.

Sonofanump · « **Reply #24 on:** December 29, 2011, 10:22:20 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on December 28, 2011, 04:56:20 PM

Hey we can get this! We doant need no steenken changes to make it "easier".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N64yUCqrhFU

I think that is excellent officiating. Great call on the field. Good job taking the time to explain a rule to a coach and get him off of the field.

Author Topic: What Can We do About Early Blocking During Onside KO's ? (videos) (Read 27873 times)

kentholm

kentholm

110

Wingman

MJT