Author Topic: Illegal Forward Pass question  (Read 18131 times)

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chymechowder

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Illegal Forward Pass question
« on: January 10, 2012, 06:36:59 PM »
3rd and goal from the B-1.  Airborne A80 receives a legal forward pass 2 yards deep in the endzone.  B55 pushes him over the sideline. Realizing he wont be able to get a foot down in bounds, A80 pitches the ball forward to A88 who catches the ball in bounds in the back of the endzone.

Do we enforce from the goal line?  Is it 4th and goal from the B-5?

And would it be the same if A88 dropped the ball?

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2012, 06:43:17 PM »
Enforce what?  There is no foul.   TD

chymechowder

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2012, 07:12:23 PM »
that's not an illegal forward pass?  didnt that happen in a bowl game a while back ?  defender caught the ball airborne over a sideline and chucked it foward to teammate?  I thought they called it an IFP (not a bat).

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2012, 07:20:21 PM »
AR 7-3-6-VIII

A80 is simply touching the ball while airborne (under the rules), he has not completed a catch (2-4-3-a) and he is not in possession of the ball (2-4-1-a).  When he "throws" the ball, he is batting it and it is a legal bat since he is eligible to touch the pass (9-4-1-a).

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2012, 07:24:06 PM »
The 2001 Peach Bowl play which was incorrectly officiated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhYB8OFMaN8

Diablo

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2012, 07:30:52 PM »
The 2001 Peach Bowl play which was incorrectly officiate.

Didn't Ref Mag conclude differently?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2012, 07:34:17 PM »
Didn't Ref Mag conclude differently?
You are taking your life in your hands considering their rulings as "gospel."
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2012, 07:43:27 PM »
Well, actually it was the R who wrote an article in Referee magazine that, to this day, I am not sure what he is saying:

From "Referee" magazine:
Was it a Bat or a Pass?
Referee Describes Play that Sparked a Rule Change

By Jon Bible

If you saw the Peach Bowl on New Year’s Eve, you saw a great athletic feat, one that has spawned a lot of discussion among officials. As the referee on the game, I’m offering this insider’s account of the play and its aftermath.

To pick off a North Carolina pass, Auburn’s Karlos Dansby leaped at a 45-degree angle. While airborne, he grabbed the ball with both hands extended and, knowing he was near the sideline and would land out of bounds, brought it back to his chest and then threw it, basketball-style, to Dontarrious Thomas, who was inbounds and in front of him. Thomas was then tackled. Because I trailed the quarterback as he rolled out and was in line with his pass, I saw what Dansby did. My first thought was "Lord, what a play!" Then I saw a flag: Line judge Mike Liner ruled that Dansby threw an illegal forward pass to Thomas even though Dansby had never "caught" the ball because he did not touch the ground with it inbounds (as described in NCAA rule 2-2-7c).

The crew huddled. I’d love to say I knew instantly how to rule, but I’d be lying. In 32 years of officiating, I had never seen that happen (nor had the other officials) and my wheels were spinning. Questions and opinions flew fast. Can someone "pass" a ball without "catching" it? If that wasn’t a pass, what was it?

One official proposed returning the ball to North Carolina and penalizing Auburn for illegally batting a ball forward in the field of play. Others agreed with the bat theory, but noted that while a pass is in flight, any player eligible to touch it may bat it in any direction (9-4-1a).

Still others felt that whether or not Dansby "caught" the ball, he did "pass" it, and because the defense cannot throw a forward pass, Auburn should keep the interception; we would be ruling that Thomas did "catch" the ball but we’d assess a five-yard penalty against Auburn.

Being the genius I am, I kept thinking it was not one of those times when I could just wing it; I had to do something. After we kicked things around for what seemed an eternity (actually two minutes, 15 seconds – I later timed it), Mike and I agreed that while Dansby had not "caught" the ball, common sense said that when he controlled the ball, brought it to his chest and intentionally threw it to Thomas, he "passed" it.

So what did I say when I turned on my microphone to explain things? I said that Dansby intercepted the ball, then threw it forward, so Auburn would retain possession with a five-yard penalty for an illegal forward pass. As it turned out, that was one wrong statement, one correct one and one guess. That isn’t so bad.

When I visited North Carolina Coach John Bunting to explain the ruling, he wanted the ball back. I told him the one thing I was sure of was that wasn’t going to happen, and that the penalty was the best deal he was going to get. I told Auburn Coach Tommy Tuberville that I had good and bad news: he had the ball, and while I wasn’t sure I was doing the right thing (yes, I admitted that), I was penalizing him five yards. He said the five yards didn’t matter if he got the ball.

The more I thought about the play as the game wore on, the more sure I was that I was wrong. I felt it should have been a bat, thus no penalty. When we got to the dressing room, I was taken aback when Big 12 Supervisor Tim Millis applauded us. Other officials, I know, can appreciate how bizarre it feels to try to convince your boss that you’re wrong on a play when he insists you were right!

Tim has since told me his thought process. When the play occurred, his first impulse was that Dansby had thrown a forward pass. He noted that, sitting in the press box, he could hear some media and even fans saying that Dansby had done so, and that their only question while we huddled was why it was taking us so long to decide something so obvious. He found himself hoping we would rule as we did, so that we would not have to try to explain to millions of people in the stadium and on TV that what they had seen had not happened.

But then he began wondering whether that was really a pass or a bat, so he started plowing through the rulebook. He reread the definition of "catch," which pointed him in one direction, but he also saw that rule 2-19-1 says that "passing the ball is throwing it" and 2-2-5a says that a player is "in possession" of the ball if he is "firmly holding or controlling it." In other words, one can "possess" and thus "pass" a ball without first "catching" it.

So we were right. Pretty much accidentally, I admit, but I’ll take it. Better to be lucky than good, I’ve always said.

Later I asked other officials what they thought. I was also repeatedly asked about the play when I attended a convention for baseball umpires. Everyone was polite, but their bottom line plainly was, "Boy, did you screw up." A month or so later, about the time I knew I was guilty as charged, Tim called to say he had just come from the NCAA Rules Committee meeting. Amazingly (to me), the committee ended up agreeing that there was a rules conflict and that, given the existing definitions, we were right. The definition of "possession" has been changed for the 2002 season to provide that future Dansbys must return to the ground inbounds to establish possession, meaning that if it happens again, our play will now be ruled a controlled bat – legal interception, no pass, no foul.

It was fun to have been involved in a funky play that generated a lot of talk and precipitated a rule change. Even better is having gotten the play right, even though I can promise that at the time none of us, especially yours truly, would have been willing to bet the farm that we had.

chymechowder

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2012, 08:09:17 PM »
ah, gotcha. thanks for the clarification!

one more (goofball) question: 

1. B20 intercepts the ball at the B-7 and his momentum carries him into the endzone. He is hit by A80 and fumbles the ball in the air over the EZ sideline.  A88 goes airborne over the sideline 2 yards deep in EZ and secures and pitches (or bats) the ball forward to A80 who catches it in the endzone.

2. same as above but the interception is at the B-3 yardline.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2012, 09:05:48 PM »
I was the Official Scorer for that game, and got to visit with Jon Bible in the locker room immediately after the game.  I can assure, he was convinced he was wrong that evening.  But he also felt the "compromise" worked out fine, and their call, right or wrong, did not have an adverse effect on the game, which they felt was important.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2012, 09:46:16 PM »
ah, gotcha. thanks for the clarification!

one more (goofball) question: 

1. B20 intercepts the ball at the B-7 and his momentum carries him into the endzone. He is hit by A80 and fumbles the ball in the air over the EZ sideline.  A88 goes airborne over the sideline 2 yards deep in EZ and secures and pitches (or bats) the ball forward to A80 who catches it in the endzone.

2. same as above but the interception is at the B-3 yardline.

Good questions, status of the ball makes all the difference.  In these plays the status of the ball is a fumble and batting a fumble is governed by 9-4-1-c.  Both are illegal bats and both are enforced from the goal line since the momentum rule (8-5-1-a-Ex) is not applicable because the ball was not dead in team B possession (10-2-2-d-2-b).  Both results are B 1/10 B-15.

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2012, 10:32:41 PM »
Batting is a 10-yarder now.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2012, 02:01:51 AM »
Didn't Ref Mag conclude differently?

Well, the relevant rules have not changed since and I think the AR which says that the action is a bat has been on the books for a few years now (it wasn't back in the 2001, as we had quite an extensive argument over this particular type of play before the Peach Bowl), so even if Ref Mag did conclude differently, they would have been wrong.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2012, 10:08:08 AM »
Batting is a 10-yarder now.

Oh, Yeah!  Why do I keep forgetting that?

Offline frank.malone

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2012, 04:28:02 PM »
Please, I need one clarification. Where the rules say that to throw (make a pass) the ball, first the player must have possesion?
As you said before: 2-19-1 says that "passing the ball is throwing it"

So the bat becomes a pass, and that pass is illegal.

Regards.
Frank.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2012, 04:38:17 PM »
2-19-1 also says that a pass continues to be a pass until it is caught or intercepted or the ball becomes dead.  Since it is "thrown" ("batted" by rule) before the 2d player catches or intercepts, whatever he did with the ball could not be a pass as it was already a pass when he touched it. 

Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2012, 09:29:00 PM »
Oh, Yeah!  Why do I keep forgetting that?

When I learned yardage, I got told "5 yards is procedure, 15 is safety, 10 is holding".  I'd like to amend that slightly now that batting has become 10; I reckon that "5 for procedure, 15 for safety and 10 for cheating" works pretty well...

Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 02:13:36 AM »
Please, I need one clarification. Where the rules say that to throw (make a pass) the ball, first the player must have possesion?
As you said before: 2-19-1 says that "passing the ball is throwing it"

So the bat becomes a pass, and that pass is illegal.

There is a valid argument that the action should be a pass. But, if it is a pass, what happens now? There are two separate passes going on at the same time, as TXMike showed that the first pass is not yet over. What if the first one is a backward pass and the second one a legal forward pass? Is A55 eligible to touch the ball now or not? It is still a backward pass, so he should, right? But it's also a forward pass, so he shouldn't?

So, the only ruling that makes any sense is to consider the action a bat, and the AR says so, so we don't need to argue about it any more - although it was a fun argument before the AR :)

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2012, 05:01:53 AM »
8-7-2-c is also iportant in this discussion:
"A loose ball retains its original status when there is new impetus"

So if it starts as a forward pass for example, it remains that forward pass as long as it is a loose ball.  And it is a loose ball until a player gains possession of it (2-4-1-a) .   In order to gain possession he must be touching the ground inbounds while controlling the ball.

Offline frank.malone

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2012, 07:29:07 AM »
Thank You very much guys. Very appreciated.


Offline TXMike

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Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 09:01:24 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiRjivte7fQ&feature=youtu.be

And people keep saying "this will never happen, why do you ask such convoluted play situation questions" :)

Offline TXMike

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2018, 09:07:50 AM »
Wish we could retrieve those old ICQ chat logs or McGriffs conversations.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2018, 09:34:54 AM »
And people keep saying "this will never happen, why do you ask such convoluted play situation questions" :)

Maybe it won't happen a 3rd time?   :sTiR:
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Kalle

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Re: Illegal Forward Pass question
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2018, 11:40:04 AM »
Wish we could retrieve those old ICQ chat logs or McGriffs conversations.

I think this is the last available snapshot of McGriff's :( https://web.archive.org/web/20061205030752/http://www.gmcgriff.com:80/refonline/