Dead ball foul or no foul

[slasc]

Hello!

1st and 10 on A-20. A88 wide receiver is beyond the NZ at snap (encroachment offense). The H flag him but doesn't kill the play. The action continues and the runner A22 goes out of bounds at the A-35. During the run, A55 (a) holds an opponent on the A-19, (b) commits a personnal foul against an opponent on the A-25.

I assume that in (a) the holding is ignored, only the offensive encroachment penalty is enforced, 1st and 15 on A-15, and in (b) the penalty for offensive encroachment is enforced and then the PF is enforced too as a dead ball foul, 1st and 12,5 on A-7,5.

What do you think?

Edit : 1st and 22,5 on A-7,5 instead of 1st and 20 on A-10

[cperezprg]

Why only 5 yards for the personal foul? I think it should be half distance.

[slasc]

Correct! I have edited the post... thank you!

[Sonofanump]

Why are we ignoring a 10 yard foul and enforcing a 5 yard foul?

So the personal foul is a dead ball personal foul, not a live ball personal foul?

[slasc]

My reflexion is, what happened if we (referees) don't kill the play after a dead ball foul like an offensive encroachment, and then other fouls happen.

1- we apologize to coaches
2- we enforce only the first penalty (which was a dead ball foul) and ignore others

or

1- we apologize
2- we enforce all penalties

or

1- we apologize
2- we enforce the first penalty and personnal or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls, but not other live ball fouls

[NVFOA_Ump]

I would suggest that for the purpose of enforcement the play be treated as a valid play in that a live ball situation, B would elect to have the PF enforced.  I would then enforce the PF 15 yds from the previous spot and the down would remain the same as it was before the "play" that should have been blown dead prior to or at the snap.

Can't quickly find a good reference but a somewhat related rule (inadvertent whistle) has the wording "If a foul or violation occurs during any of the above downs, the penalty or violation privilege shall be administered as in any other play situation if not in conflict with other rules".

[Kalle]

I seem to remember a bulletin play which basically says that if the officials fail to kill the play at the proper time, any action after that is ignored except for personal fouls, which will be treated as (additional) dead ball fouls. Somebody with a better bulletin index may have the reference available?

[Magician]

I seem to remember a bulletin play which basically says that if the officials fail to kill the play at the proper time, any action after that is ignored except for personal fouls, which will be treated as (additional) dead ball fouls. Somebody with a better bulletin index may have the reference available?

I don't remember any bulletin but I agree with the philosophy.  I would have stern discussion in the locker room with the covering wing official.  That's either lack of rules knowledge or a lack of concentration.  Many of us have probably done it early in our careers so it needs to be a learning experience that is not forgotten.

[foureyedzebra]

Ball remains dead by rule (7-1-3-c) when encroachment is committed. Therefore the balll never became live and this "play" never happened. The "holding" that happened during scenario (a) of this "play" is ignored unless personal foul in nature, which your post does not say that it was. If accepted, the penalty for encroachment is enforced in both (a) and (b) and will be enforced first.

In (a), ignore the holding and enforce the encroachment - 1st and 15 on A-15.

In (b) enforce the penalty (half the distance) for the personal foul after having enforced the encroachment-
 
1st and 22.5 on A-7.5

Now that I think about it, I've never seen a hold that was worthy of a personal foul penalty and probably never will unless the player is being held by the twig or berries but if that happened it would be "encrotchment" wouldn't it? 

[Kalle]

See A.R. 6-5-2-I.