How to enforce this play?

[The Ref Thats Lef]

Team A punt the ball and team B give a fair catch signal at their 4 yard line. The kick is muffed and roles back into the end zone where the player who gave the signal picks it up. He pauses for a moment and then decides to run the ball out even though a whistle is being blown.

A team A player tackles him and drives him to the ground.

One of the team B players team mates takes exception to this and makes contact with the team A tackler and one of the tacklers team mates takes exception to this and retaliates.

[FLbackjudge]

Since the receiver gave a fair catch signal, the ball is dead when he picks it up in the EZ, resulting in a touchback.  Since the whistle was blowing, I would not charge him with delay of game, so the question is: what do we do with the dead ball fouls. Under NCAA rules, the penalties cancel (10-1-5-Exception), so it's B's ball 1st and 10 at the B20.  Any of the fouls that were flagrant will result in ejections.

[The Ref Thats Lef]

But what happens if you do decide the receivers actions were a delay of game.

[jg-me]

Check the fair catch AR's. You may rethink cancelling fouls.

[Kalle]

Let's deal with the retaliation first. This sounds like fighting, so eject both. These penalties do cancel. Also, the tackle is a dead ball PF, so that cancels, too. We are left with the delay of game penalty, which is enforced from the succeeding spot. 1st and 10 at B-15 for team B.

jg-me, I don't see any AR that would say that DB PF's by both team after the ball becomes dead due to a fair catch signal would not cancel as usual. Could you point me to the right AR?

[jg-me]

AR 6-5-2-I. Now without knowing the timing of the whistle, how many steps the 'returner' took, etc. it's hard to say if we definitely should ignore the tackle by A. I am just pointing out that this is not necessarily a late hit foul for the tackling action. The retaliation is clearly a DB foul.

[Kalle]

You are absolutely right that if the tackle is very shortly after the whistle, it could well be legal. In any case the end result will be the same, though

[Diablo]

AR 6-5-2-I. Now without knowing the timing of the whistle, how many steps the 'returner' took, etc. it's hard to say if we definitely should ignore the tackle by A. I am just pointing out that this is not necessarily a late hit foul for the tackling action.

In general, I think the current wording of the rule and associated ARs paint an unclear picture of what to do when faced with a tackled fair catcher.

Note the contrast in the wording of the following citations.

6-5-5  No player of the kicking team shall tackle or block an opponent who has completed a fair catch. Only the player making a fair catch signal has this protection (A.R. 6-5-5-I and III).

AR 6-5-2-I  B1 gives a fair catch signal before a muff by B2, and then B1 catches or recovers the kick and advances. RULING: Because of B1’s signal the ball is dead where caught or recovered. Two steps are permitted to enable B1 to come to a stop or to regain balance. A third or subsequent step inbounds is subject to penalty from where the ball is caught or recovered. If B1 is tackled, the tackle is disregarded unless deemed unnecessarily rough or is so late that the tackler should know that there was no intention to advance. If the kick is caught or recovered by Team B in the end zone, it is a touchback. If B1 is tackled before completion of a third step, only the tackler has fouled.

AR 6-5-5-II  B22 makes a fair catch and is tackled before he has carried the ball more than two steps. RULING: Foul by the tackler. Penalty—15 yards from the succeeding spot.

My sense is that the rules makers want officials to apply the interpretation as given in AR 6-5-2-I.  However, both the rule itself (6-5-5) and a second official interpretation (AR 6-5-5-II) give a different, unrestricted reckoning.  It seems an Exception should be inserted into 6-5-5 at the very least.

On a boarder scale, I think other aspects of fair catches should be revisited.  Examples, definition of a valid fair catch signal and no advance more than 2 steps.

[Kalle]

I don't see a rule/AR conflict here. The returner gets protection for the first two steps (as both 6-5-2-I and 6-5-5-II say), after that he has fouled and is no longer given (extra) protection.

[The Ref Thats Lef]

Thanks for your thoughts so far. Now if I was to say the defender advancing the was called as DOG followed by the three late hits/unnecessary roughness how would you enforce that?

[NVFOA_Ump]

I don't see a rule/AR conflict here. The returner gets protection for the first two steps (as both 6-5-2-I and 6-5-5-II say), after that he has fouled and is no longer given (extra) protection.

I don't believe that it's that simple.  If the returner as can be envisioned here, runs back into the EZ after the loose ball, picks it up, then turns back around and takes off up field, he's shown a clear intent to advance the ball and in my mind he's immediately fair game to tackle.  That is very different than the case where the player is running up to fair catch the ball and needs a step or two to stop his forward momentum.  Additionally, when did the whistle sound in conjunction with the "return" back toward the field of play is a big part of the question.

Thanks for your thoughts so far. Now if I was to say the defender advancing the was called as DOG followed by the three late hits/unnecessary roughness how would you enforce that?

The DOG is a DB foul, that appears to be the the first of several DB fouls.  They should all be enforced in order of occurrence with the following from rule 10-1-5 in mind:

Dead-Ball Fouls
ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-III) [Exception: When dead-ball unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and before any of the penalties have been completed, the fouls offset, the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected, and the penalties are canceled, except that any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and 10-2-2-a)].

Given that it appears that we have at least 1 DB PF on each team, I've got 1st and 10 for B on the 15 yard line.

[Kalle]

Thanks for your thoughts so far. Now if I was to say the defender advancing the was called as DOG followed by the three late hits/unnecessary roughness how would you enforce that?

It does not matter if there are two or three late hits, as all of them are DB PF fouls, and as long as there's at least one on both teams, all of them cancel. You are left with the DOG - 1st and 10 from B-15, like NVFOA_Ump said.

[Kalle]

I don't believe that it's that simple.  If the returner as can be envisioned here, runs back into the EZ after the loose ball, picks it up, then turns back around and takes off up field, he's shown a clear intent to advance the ball and in my mind he's immediately fair game to tackle.  That is very different than the case where the player is running up to fair catch the ball and needs a step or two to stop his forward momentum.  Additionally, when did the whistle sound in conjunction with the "return" back toward the field of play is a big part of the question.

Well, we were talking about a player who illegally advances a dead ball. If we are talking about a player who is attempting to stop immediately after catching/recovering the ball after the FC signal, I do agree that I would be more likely to penalize the team A tackler, too, even if the team B player takes more than two steps.

[centexsports]

Since all fouls are dead ball fouls why is it not 1st and ten on the 20?

[Kalle]

Since all fouls are dead ball fouls why is it not 1st and ten on the 20?

Because only PF and USC fouls are eligible to be cancelled. Any other DB foul is still enforced as usual.

[Diablo]

I don't see a rule/AR conflict here. The returner gets protection for the first two steps (as both 6-5-2-I and 6-5-5-II say), after that he has fouled and is no longer given (extra) protection.

Ahhhhhh, gosh darn it.  I've done it again -  not carefully reading.

In AR 6-5-1-I, I didn't realize that B1 is tackled AFTER his third step.  Didn't realize it in spite of the fact the AR addresses issues related to Article 2 (no advance beyond 2 steps).  Furthermore, the last sentence of the AR is in line with AR 6-5-5-II and rule 6-5-5.

Thanks Kalle !!

[Kalle]

Ahhhhhh, gosh darn it.  I've done it again -  not carefully reading.

I hate it when that happens to me - and I think you've seen it happen to me more than once

[The Ref Thats Lef]

The thing is you can read the rule two ways

ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5:I-VI) [Exception: When unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the referee and before any of the penalties have been completed, the fouls offset, the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred is unaffected, and the penalties are canceled, except that any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and 10-2-2-a)].

It can be read to apply to only the USC and PFs or it could be read to include any dead ball fouls when USC or PFs on both teams are called.

In this situation it seems perverse that someone can commit a minor illegal act which gets enforced while a load of major ones get ignored.

Is there any guidance on how this rule should be read?

[Kalle]

See Rom Gilbert's quiz question #6 at http://romgilbert.us/q-1013q.htm

If Rom says only PF and USC fouls can cancel, that's good enough for me

[DD]

The runner was allowed the chance to catch the ball and muffed it.  Once the ball touched the ground we have a recovery and not a catch. The returner still cannot advance the ball and we have a delay of game. The two steps apply if the returner is trying to catch the ball on the run and the ball has not touched the ground.  Depending of the timing of the tackle it could be considered a legal hit. The PFs cancel.

[Kalle]

The two steps apply if the returner is trying to catch the ball on the run and the ball has not touched the ground.

A.R. 6-5-2-I disagrees with you, as it talks about catching or recovering the ball.

[NVFOA_Ump]

A.R. 6-5-2-I is very specific in that the "Two steps are permitted to enable B1 to come to a stop or to regain balance."  If after a fair catch signal has been given and the B player recovers a muffed ball heading in the wrong direction, then turns and starts back up field, the two step allowance simply does not apply.  We should have an immediate whistle when possession is established and it then becomes our judgment as to what we have if the B player is tackled.