Help...

[StripedOutlaw]

Had this one come up and I am having some brain farts with it. 

A 1/10 on the A-30. QB A10 drops back and throw a legal forward pass that is intercepted by B1 at the B-25. During his return, A10 grabs and twists B1's face mask in an attempt to tackle him at the A-20. B1 subsequently fumbles the ball at the A-15. The ball is scooped up by A44 at the A-15, And during his return, B1 grabs and twists his face mask while tackling him at the A-20.

[Atlanta Blue]

B intercepted without a foul, so they are in good shape.
A fouled before regaining possession, they didn't get the ball with "clean hands", so they aren't going to be able to keep it.
B fouled during A's return.  This can't be ignored.

B has two options:

1.  Accept A's foul, which will create a double foul, and the down is replayed (bad choice).
2.  Decline A's foul, in which case they will retain possession, with the foul against B being marked off from the end of that related run (A-15).  So B will get the ball 1&10 at the A30.  Clock on the snap.

And you had better hope that everyone had enough beanbags and flags to get everything marked right!

[TampaSteve]

only see 1 bean baggable item.  The B fumble.
While certainly a good idea to beanbag an int (and this is a good example), not NFHS mechanic.
Atl is in deep with the NCAA & NFL folks though.   

[StripedOutlaw]

I agree, but I can't find a reference

[Rulesman]

Why would you bag an INT in Federation? It is not an enforcement spot.

[TampaSteve]

point of ref if an IW.

[ECILLJ]

 

2.  Decline A's foul, in which case they will retain possession, with the foul against B being marked off from the end of that related run (A-15).  So B will get the ball 1&10 at the A30.  Clock on the snap.

 If B declines the foul by A (personal face mask), how can B retain the ball? We now only have one flag and it is against B (personal face mask) at the end of the run. The rule is clear as mud (see below).

 
ART. 1 . . . It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than
> unsportsmanlike
> or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
> a. There is no change of team possession, unless all fouls committed by R are
> post-scrimmage kick fouls, or
> b. There is a change of team possession, and the team in possession at the
> end of the down fouls prior to final change of possession unless all fouls
> committed by R are post-scrimmage kick fouls, or
> c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts
> the penalty for its opponent's foul at any time during the down.
> In (a), (b) or (c), the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.
> ART. 2 . . . If each team fouls during a down in which there is a change of
> team
> possession and the play does not have a post-scrimmage kick foul, the team
> last
> gaining possession may retain the ball, provided:
> a. the foul by the team last gaining possession is not prior to the final
> change
> of possession, and
> b. the team last gaining possession declines the penalty for its opponent's
> foul(s), other than a nonplayer or unsportsmanlike foul.
> In this case, the team that was not last in possession has no penalty options
> until the team last in possession has made its penalty decision on the fouls
> prior
> to the change of possession. After that decision by the team last in
> possession,
> the team not last in possession may decline or accept the penalty by the team
> last
> in possession or choose which foul to have enforced in the case that the team
> last
> in possession committed more than one foul following the change.
>

[Ump33]

B intercepted without a foul, so they are in good shape.
A fouled before regaining possession, they didn't get the ball with "clean hands", so they aren't going to be able to keep it.
B fouled during A's return.  This can't be ignored.

B has two options:

1.  Accept A's foul, which will create a double foul, and the down is replayed (bad choice).
2.  Decline A's foul, in which case they will retain possession, with the foul against B being marked off from the end of that related run (A-15).  So B will get the ball 1&10 at the A30.  Clock on the snap.

And you had better hope that everyone had enough beanbags and flags to get everything marked right!

Double Foul with no options, Offset and replay the down. Team A is in final possession and they fouled prior to the final change of possession.

See 10-2-1b … There is a change of team possession, and the team in possession at the end of the down fouls prior to final change of possession unless all fouls committed by R are post-scrimmage kick fouls, the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.

[Rulesman]

point of ref if an IW.

For what reason? I must be missing something; 4-2-3 (IAW rule) doesn't address the spot of an INT as an option.

[bama_stripes]

Double Foul with no options, Offset and replay the down. Team A is in final possession and they fouled prior to the final change of possession.

See 10-2-1b … There is a change of team possession, and the team in possession at the end of the down fouls prior to final change of possession unless all fouls committed by R are post-scrimmage kick fouls, the penalties cancel and the down is replayed.

+1.

[Kalle]

only see 1 bean baggable item.  The B fumble.
While certainly a good idea to beanbag an int (and this is a good example), not NFHS mechanic.
Atl is in deep with the NCAA & NFL folks though.   

In NCAA, too, there should be only one bean bag and two flags on the ground at the end of the play. Spot of interception of a forward pass and spot of recovery of a fumble (simpler, any start of a run, except for the end of the kick) can never be enforcement spots, so there's no need to bag them.

[Curious]

B intercepted without a foul, so they are in good shape.
A fouled before regaining possession, they didn't get the ball with "clean hands", so they aren't going to be able to keep it.
B fouled during A's return.  This can't be ignored.

B has two options:

1.  Accept A's foul, which will create a double foul, and the down is replayed (bad choice).
2.  Decline A's foul, in which case they will retain possession, with the foul against B being marked off from the end of that related run (A-15).  So B will get the ball 1&10 at the A30.  Clock on the snap.

And you had better hope that everyone had enough beanbags and flags to get everything marked right!

whoa big fella....isn't A the team in final possession at the end of the down?  10-1-1b and c tell us that if the team in final possession fouls b/4 gaining possession it is, by definition, a double foul IF they accept their opponents foul - (which they would certainly do) and if no B foul is PSK.

Administratively, I believe we need to go to the team in final possession first.  If they accept B's foul, then go to B (really just a formality), who certainly will accept A's foul resulting in a replay of the down.  We shouldn't let anything else happen....

Mud indeed ECILLJ...

 

[Atlanta Blue]

Yeah, I botched it.  I was trying to apply the rule that says B could keep the ball by declining A's foul, but B didn't have the ball, so they can't keep it.  A double foul is the only option.

And yes, there is no need for a beanbag at the spot of an INT in FED or the NCAA.  It only applies in the NFL, although I have heard that it is a consideration for a rule change in the NCAA.  In fact, I discussed it with an SEC official today.  But at the moment, only in the NFL.

[Kalle]

Yeah, I botched it.  I was trying to apply the rule that says B could keep the ball by declining A's foul, but B didn't have the ball, so they can't keep it.  A double foul is the only option.

And yes, there is no need for a beanbag at the spot of an INT in FED or the NCAA.  It only applies in the NFL, although I have heard that it is a consideration for a rule change in the NCAA.  In fact, I discussed it with an SEC official today.  But at the moment, only in the NFL.

What kind of a rule change? It would require something like PSK or a deviation from 3-and-1 for the run immediately after the interception.

Of course, there might be a mechanics change requiring to bag interceptions, but that's another matter

[Atlanta Blue]

What kind of a rule change? It would require something like PSK or a deviation from 3-and-1 for the run immediately after the interception.

Of course, there might be a mechanics change requiring to bag interceptions, but that's another matter

Was told by an SEC official that it has been discussed that certain fouls might have the interception spot as a point of enforcement, to bring them in line with the NFL.  Don't know how serious the talk is, and sure don't know the details. 

[bama_stripes]

I thought the NFL bag was just for the stats guys in the pre-video days.

[Atlanta Blue]

I thought the NFL bag was just for the stats guys in the pre-video days.

As an NFL stat guy, I can tell you we NEVER use the spot of the beanbag, it's nowhere near accurate.  It's typically thrown by a deep official who is well ahead of the play (as he should be), and he is throwing it a significant distance.  If he gets within two yards it's a good throw.

But the bag is more important than that.  The spot of the interception can be an enforcement spot.

PERSONAL FOUL OR UNSPORTSMANLIKE FOUL BY OFFENSE
Article 3 Personal Foul or Unsportsmanlike Foul by Offense Prior to Change of Possession.
When the offense commits a personal foul or unsportsmanlike foul prior to an interception, or the recovery
by the defense of a backward pass or fumble, a 15-yard penalty will be enforced from the dead-ball spot.
Exception: If the intercepting or recovering team loses possession after the interception or recovery,
enforcement is from the spot where the interception or recovery occurred, and the ball will be retained by
the intercepting or recovering team after the enforcement for the personal foul.

A.R. 8.50 Third-and-10 on A30. B1 intercepts a forward pass at the B30, runs to the B35, fumbles and Team A recovers.
Prior to the pass, A3 crackbacks on A26.
Ruling: B’s ball first-and-10 on B45.