Author Topic: Numbering exception  (Read 4285 times)

Offline AFSST

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Numbering exception
« on: August 14, 2012, 10:37:32 PM »
Here's an interesting play with a very subtle rule interpretation:

With :03 left in the first quarter, A is facing third and 20 from their 10 yard line.  There is a stiff wind at A's back, so A's coach decides to punt on third down instead of having to possibly punt into the wind on fourth down after the quarter change.  He sends his punt team on to the field.  The seven linemen all have numbers A1-A49.  Is this a legal formation?
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2012, 11:10:37 PM »
Not so subtle.  No, it's not legal.  On 1,2 or 3rd down, only the snapper can use the numbering exception in a scrimmage kick formation.  On 4th down, all linemen can use the exception in a scrimmage kick formation.

All made posible by the fine folks that brought you the A11 offense! cRaZy

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2012, 05:30:01 AM »
All made posible by the fine folks that brought you the offense that shall not be named!

Fixed it for you.

Offline AFSST

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2012, 06:31:25 AM »
Dang it...I wrote the play wrong.  Same scenario, but on the line of scrimmage K has 4 players numbered 50-79 and 3 players 1-49 or 80-99.  The snapper is #40.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:11:08 AM by AFSST »
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Offline AFSST

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2012, 06:44:32 AM »
Not so subtle.  No, it's not legal.  On 1,2 or 3rd down, only the snapper can use the numbering exception in a scrimmage kick formation.  On 4th down, all linemen can use the exception in a scrimmage kick formation.

Here's the subtlety.  The numbering exception on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down applies only to the field goal formation (as in 2-14-2a), not the punt formation (2-14-2b).  So if the punt team comes on to the field on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down, they must have legal numbering.

(7-2-5)
ART. 5 . . . Player formation and numbering requirements include:

a. At the snap, at least seven A players shall be on their line of scrimmage.

b. At the snap, at least five A players on their line of scrimmage must be numbered 50 to 79.

EXCEPTIONS:

1. On first, second or third down, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation as in 2-14-2a, the snapper may be a player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99. If Team A has the snapper in the game under this exception, Team A shall have at least four players wearing numbers 50 to 79 on its line of scrimmage.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2012, 07:11:26 AM by AFSST »
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Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2012, 08:40:26 AM »
OK, now I see your subtlety.  On a 1, 2 or 3rd down FG formation (to use the more understandable venacular term), the snapper alone can use the exception.  There are no exceptions for punts on these downs.

On 4th down (or tries), any scrimmage kick formation can use the full numbering exception for the whole line, not just the snapper.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2012, 08:58:45 AM »
Fixed it for you.
You beat me to it!  pi1eOn
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Offline AFSST

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2012, 01:02:07 PM »
And an editorial comment from George Demetriou, the Colorado rules interpreter and author of the Redding Study Guide: "If they punt, [a foul] should not be called. That wasn’t the intent of the rule."  So, we won't flag a punt, but will flag a running or passing play out of this formation.
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Offline VALJ

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2012, 01:16:29 PM »
I'm not sure that I like that (though of course, if I were in Colorado, I'd listen).  I get the idea he's going for - if they punt, K's still giving up possession of the ball, so the spirit of the rule is intact.  But, if R fumbles, and K recovers, K's gaining a first down, even after the unpenalized foul.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2012, 10:44:24 PM »
Would like to hear some thoughts on scrimmage kick formation.

If K is in a "regular" FG formation with the holder 7 yards behind the LOS in position to receive a snap (but is not necessarily directly behind the snapper), the holder does not have either knee on the ground, and there is another K player at least 10 yards behind the LOS who can receive a snap, is this considered a scrimmage kick formation?

If there are two K players at least 10 yards behind the LOS, and neither is directly behind the snapper, is this a scrimmage kick formation?

Snap requirements do not require the ball to go directly backwards.

What guidelines do you use to keep the scrimmage kick formation rules from being blurred?

Thanks in advance.

Offline maven

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 08:47:29 AM »
I use 2-14-2:

A scrimmage kick formation is one in which no player is in position
to receive a hand-to-hand snap from between the snapper’s legs, and at the snap,
either:
a. A player is in position with a knee on the ground 7 yards or more behind
the line of scrimmage, in position to be the holder and receive the long snap
and with another player 3 yards or less behind that player in position to
attempt a place kick, or
b. A player is 10 yards or more behind the line of scrimmage and in position
to receive the long snap.

A player need not be directly behind the snapper to be in position to receive the long snap. Official's judgment.
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 05:06:04 PM »
Would like to hear some thoughts on scrimmage kick formation.

If K is in a "regular" FG formation with the holder 7 yards behind the LOS in position to receive a snap (but is not necessarily directly behind the snapper), the holder does not have either knee on the ground, and there is another K player at least 10 yards behind the LOS who can receive a snap, is this considered a scrimmage kick formation?

If there are two K players at least 10 yards behind the LOS, and neither is directly behind the snapper, is this a scrimmage kick formation?

Snap requirements do not require the ball to go directly backwards.

What guidelines do you use to keep the scrimmage kick formation rules from being blurred?

Thanks in advance.

Have you actually seen either of these situations?

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Numbering exception
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 09:16:52 PM »
Have you actually seen either of these situations?

Watching the Aloha scrimmage kick video, Matt S shows a play where the holder doesn't have a knee on the ground.  He makes a good point about this being a tip off for a potential fake.  That also made me wonder about the numbering exception and scrimmage kick formations.  What if, for example, #44 was the snapper and the kicker was more than 10 yards behind the snapper?

The 2nd scenario of the two players at least 10 yards behind the LOS, neither of which is directly behind the snapper came from the 2009 Redding Guide.  The 2009 RG described this as a scrimmage kick formation so the snapper was afforded protection.