Author Topic: Defense can't decline penalty  (Read 11962 times)

Offline FBUmp

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2012, 05:19:46 PM »
Here are two I now know of:
1) Just throwing a flag causes a pass to become an 'illegal pass' (what was an incomplete pass if no flag is thrown turns into an 'illegal incomplete pass' after throwing the flag)
2) Just throwing a flag on R after R touches a kick causes first touching to be ignored

Any others?

bbeagle, I have no idea why you're choosing to think of these plays in this fashion but it serves no purpose.

All plays are changed when a foul is committed.  The official throwing the flag does not change the play.  The player committing the foul changes the play.

Offline Curious

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2012, 06:07:02 PM »
Your response, Curious, doesn't make sense to me.

If, by declining the penalty for A's illegal forward pass, "it simply becomes an incomplete pass", then this should also work in the OP with the EZ involved.  But it doesn't.  It's STILL an IFP. 

It's not even an issue in the OP because whether the penalty is accepted or declined, it's a safety.  It's a running play and the run ended in the end zone; so there is no succeeding spot from which B can snap the ball.  Agree? 

If the IFP is not to be penalized because B declined, then the ball should go over to B at the A5 (spot of the IFP/end of the run). 

Are you talking about the variation or OP? Agreed on the variation

n the above variation by cbrunnjo, if B accepts, they would get first and goal from the 2 1/2 (half the distance from the spot of the foul which is the A5).  If B declines, they would get first and goal from the A5 (result of the play). 

Agreed....my head must have been up my butt.

You can't give B (or A) the option of saying to the officials, "we're declining it because we think it's a bad call and that IFP is now going to be treated as a legal pass."  An official called the pass illegal, and unless overruled by a subsequent discussion with fellow officials on the field, that pass is still illegal and treated as a dead ball at the spot of the pass.

What does this even mean?

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 07:51:15 AM »
bbeagle, I have no idea why you're choosing to think of these plays in this fashion but it serves no purpose.

All plays are changed when a foul is committed.  The official throwing the flag does not change the play.  The player committing the foul changes the play.

A foul is a foul. I understand that. Our throwing a flag is BECAUSE a foul happened on the field.

However, our throwing a flag DOES change the play.

I have always thought that as a play transpired, we threw our flags for fouls. If the team decided they wanted the play without help from our penalty, they could simply decline our flags and take the play as it is. This is NOT TRUE. In some cases, a team may NOT just decline our penalties and take the play as it occurred.

An incomplete forward pass results in a succeeding spot of the previous spot. Just by throwing our flag for intentional grounding, we have changed what the succeeding spot is. It's a JUDGEMENT call on our part that there are no receivers in the area. Declining our 'penalty' has no bearing on the succeeding spot. Just throwing our flag changed the succeeding spot regardless of accepting or declining the penalty.

On something like a holding call, declining the penalty results in the play exactly the same as it was before -as if we never threw a flag. The succeeding spot is a result of the PLAY, not the flag thrown.

I will call the game according to the rules, because that is what I am paid to do, and I will defend the rule book on the field, and my personal opinions do not take place on the field, but it's just an oddity that I'm pointing out off the field.


mbyron

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2012, 10:12:20 AM »
However, our throwing a flag DOES change the play.

...

On something like a holding call, declining the penalty results in the play exactly the same as it was before -as if we never threw a flag. The succeeding spot is a result of the PLAY, not the flag thrown.

Disagree. Throwing a flag does not usually change the play or anything that happens during the play. The flag has no causal impact, but is merely evidence that a foul occurred during the down (or after, or whatever).

The penalty might or might not be accepted, and that can affect the outcome of the down. When a passer throws an illegal pass, for instance, the succeeding spot is determined by the illegal pass (and the rule), not the flag.

Officials' judgment is part of the story, but it shouldn't be a causal part: when the officials get it right, as they should, their flag simply signals the events that properly determine the outcome of the down.

When they get it wrong, THEN they can affect the outcome causally by either failing to signal events that should have determined the outcome or by signalling events that did not occur. That's partly why it's so important to get it right!

Online bama_stripes

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 02:04:11 PM »
bbeagle --

I still don't think you understand one salient point:

Even if B were allowed to decline the penalty and take the ball at the previous spot, there's no guarantee that they would be able to score from there.  Granted, that's somewhat unusual, but it's certainly not rare.

Plus, they will (barring a successful on-side kick) get the ball after the safety, thus giving them another chance to score from what should be excellent field position.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Defense can't decline penalty
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2012, 09:13:40 AM »
All illegal forward passes are treated the same.

A's ball on their own 20, 4th down and 10.  A12 "scrambles" and then runs to B's 10 yard line and throws an illegal forward pass that is incomplete.  If B declines the penalty, it is A's ball 1st and 10 at the B 10 yard line.  If B accepts the penalty, it is A's ball 1st and 10 at B's 15 yard line.  A always get the result of their run prior to an illegal forward pass, wherever that run may end.