Author Topic: 12 Men on Defense  (Read 3132 times)

Offline bossman72

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12 Men on Defense
« on: August 17, 2012, 11:11:43 AM »
Play:  the offense has broken the huddle and is on the ball.  The defensive 12th man is running off the field and the ball is snapped when he is at the bottom of the numbers.

Are we throwing this as a live ball illegal sub or shutting it down and calling it dead ball?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2012, 11:46:56 AM »
Are we throwing this as a live ball illegal sub or shutting it down and calling it dead ball?

Doesn't the new language added in the 2011-2012 book at the end of 3-5-3-b say shut it down and call it a DB? ("Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.")
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 03:04:16 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Kalle

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2012, 12:08:50 PM »
Doesn't the new language added in the 2011-2012 book at the end of 3-5-3-b say shut it down and call it a DB? ("Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.")

I don't think the departing replaced player is "in formation", so I'm calling this a live-ball foul.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2012, 12:36:49 PM »
I don't think the departing replaced player is "in formation", so I'm calling this a live-ball foul.
That's looking for trouble in my opinion.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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El Macman

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 12:46:14 PM »
I don't think the departing replaced player is "in formation", so I'm calling this a live-ball foul.

Unless his replacement just stepped onto the field (not likely), then, in all liklihood, he was out there more than the maximum three seconds required to begin to depart. So, I'd go with dead-ball illegal substitution. If he is within two steps of the sideline, I might let it go as a live-ball illegal sub for not getting of the field in time. More than that, I think we're better off shutting it down and going dead-ball foul.

Offline Kalle

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 12:57:52 PM »
Unless his replacement just stepped onto the field (not likely), then, in all liklihood, he was out there more than the maximum three seconds required to begin to depart.

The three second rule does not apply to team B. The rule requirement is that there must not be more than 11 players in formation when the snap is imminent. Then again, the A.R.s use the three second rule for team B fouls and do not say anything about the snap...

I think my on the field ruling would depend on the offensive formation and whether or not the 12th defensive player might interfere with the play. When in doubt, dead ball foul, as it is a safety issue (didn't think about this when I posted my original comment).

Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 12:58:45 PM »
Unless his replacement just stepped onto the field (not likely), then, in all liklihood, he was out there more than the maximum three seconds required to begin to depart. So, I'd go with dead-ball illegal substitution. If he is within two steps of the sideline, I might let it go as a live-ball illegal sub for not getting of the field in time. More than that, I think we're better off shutting it down and going dead-ball foul.
I wouldn't assume that.  He could be coming from the opposite side of the field after his replacement had to go across the field.

If the guy is clearly going off and there's no way he's going to get tangled up with offensive players then I'd let it go and flag as live ball.  I'm not sure how that would be "looking for trouble".

Offline Diablo

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »
Play:  the offense has broken the huddle and is on the ball.  The defensive 12th man is running off the field and the ball is snapped when he is at the bottom of the numbers.
Are we throwing this as a live ball illegal sub or shutting it down and calling it dead ball?

I think 3-5-3-b applies to this situation.  The sentence in bold was added last year.

Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul. Five yards at the succeeding spot. [S22]

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 01:29:08 PM »
...I'd let it go and flag as live ball.  I'm not sure how that would be "looking for trouble".
See 3-5-3b. The word "shall" is pretty specific to me. Any other interpretation is looking for trouble.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline Andrew McCarthy

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 02:40:35 PM »
See 3-5-3b. The word "shall" is pretty specific to me. Any other interpretation is looking for trouble.
That's related to the defense having more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent.  On the posted play the 12th player was not in formation but rather running to his sideline.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 03:35:24 PM »
That's related to the defense having more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent.  On the posted play the 12th player was not in formation but rather running to his sideline.
The coordinators I know want it shut down.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 05:32:20 PM »
The three second rule does not apply to team B. The rule requirement is that there must not be more than 11 players in formation when the snap is imminent. Then again, the A.R.s use the three second rule for team B fouls and do not say anything about the snap...

Isn't the current substitution rule wording that states the 3 second requirement team neutral, and therefore should be applicable equally to both team A and team B?

3-5-2-c 2. A departing player must immediately leave the field of play, including the end zones. A departing player who leaves the huddle or his position within three seconds, after a substitute becomes a player, is considered to have left immediately.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2012, 03:46:57 AM »
Isn't the current substitution rule wording that states the 3 second requirement team neutral, and therefore should be applicable equally to both team A and team B?

One more example of the difficulty of using the NCAA rule book... the three second requirement is used in two places. First, in rule 3-5-2-c-2, which is team neutral, and then again in rule 3-5-3-a, which only applies to team A. Why it is repeated in rule 3-5-3-a, I have no idea, as it is not repeated in rule 3-5-3-b.

Offline TXMike

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2012, 06:23:29 AM »
I realize there are some issues using this for guidance, but.....the 2012 Redding Study Guide has this example:

First and goal on the B-9.  B42 comes onto the field to replace B10 at the last moment as part of a goal line defense.  B10 is running towards his sideline at the snap.  RULING:  The foul is simultaneous with the snap.  Since B10 was trying to leave, there was no infraction until the ball was snapped.

Just saying......................

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 06:29:30 AM »
But doesn't the new wording cover us on that by including the " .... snap has just occured" and still let us call this a DB foul?  In fact instruct us to shut the play down (" ..... shall stop the action")
« Last Edit: August 18, 2012, 08:14:38 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Diablo

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2012, 08:26:22 AM »
That's related to the defense having more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent.  On the posted play the 12th player was not in formation but rather running to his sideline.

Play:  the offense has broken the huddle and is on the ball.  The defensive 12th man is running off the field and the ball is snapped when he is at the bottom of the numbers.

I don't think the play on the table tells us if Team B is in formation or not.

But to stir the pot a bit, check out Play #10 in 2011 Bulletin #2.
10. Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped. RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty. (6-5-3)

PS:  Not sure why 6-5-3 is cited at the end of the Ruling.

Offline YoungB

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2012, 11:25:54 AM »
2011-2012 Play Interpretations Bulletin NO. 2

More Than Eleven Players on Defense
10. Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty. (6-5-3)

Offline TXMike

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2012, 02:19:37 PM »
 ;D     But what about 2011-12 Interpretations Bulletin NO. 2, Play 10?

More Than Eleven Players on Defense
10. Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty. (6-5-3)
 ;D

Online ref6983

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2012, 04:56:12 PM »
;D     But what about 2011-12 Interpretations Bulletin NO. 2, Play 10?

More Than Eleven Players on Defense
10. Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped.
RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty. (6-5-3)
 ;D

Looks like it was worth repeating three times since several people seemed to have missed it the first time.

Offline Diablo

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2012, 07:21:06 PM »
Is there an echo on this web site?   :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reviewing the rule and bulletin play:

3-5-2-b 
Team B is allowed to briefly retain more than 11 players on the field to anticipate the offensive formation, but it may not have more than 11 players in its formation if the snap is imminent. Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action.
PENALTY—Dead-ball foul. Five yards at the succeeding spot.

Play 10 2011 Bulletin 2 
Team B has 12 players on the field but they are not in any sense “in the formation” as the team tries to make adjustments. The twelfth player is racing to get off the field and is near the sideline when the ball is snapped. RULING: Live-ball foul for illegal substitution. Five-yard penalty at the previous spot. Treating this as a dead-ball foul could disadvantage the offense and they must be allowed the option to decline the penalty.

Is it valid to conclude that the penalty enforcement (dead- vs live-ball foul) hinges on whether Team B is in formation or just milling around? 

Offline TXMike

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2012, 07:24:23 PM »
I have always (perhaps wrongly so) looked at it in terms of what are the players doing?  If it looks like they know they are over 1 and are trying to figure out who should go, or already have 1 starting to go, seems like that is a situation where A gets the "right" to attempt a "free play."   But if B clearly is not going to send one off, then stop and penalize as a dead ball foul.

Offline LJ Silver

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2012, 10:42:41 PM »
I've heard it explained this way:

If the 12th defender knows he is the 12th player and is trying to get off the field = Live Ball Foul
If the 12th defender has no idea he is the 12th player and is not trying to get off the field = Dead Ball Foul

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2012, 06:02:20 AM »
I've heard it explained this way:

If the 12th defender knows he is the 12th player and is trying to get off the field = Live Ball Foul
If the 12th defender has no idea he is the 12th player and is not trying to get off the field = Dead Ball Foul

Based on the rules this could be acceptable in the very narrow case where:

1.  The team has not had 12 (or more) players on the field for over 3 seconds
     and
2.  The team has immediately responded (again not more than 3 seconds) with replaced player(s) starting off of the field
     and
3.  The team's replaced player(s) are exiting and will clearly be off of the field without interfering with play

One could potentially justify "letting this go" using AR 3-5-2-I, although we should factor in our decision that the rule was changed in 2011-2012, after most of the applicable AR's were in the book, to add the new specific "shall" statement: "Whether the snap is imminent or has just occurred, the officials shall stop the action."

In one man's opinion, this is another of those rule changes where a very specifically worded directive was added (the new "shall" statement), without any editing or additions to the existing AR's that appear to conflict with the change.
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Offline BJ

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2012, 12:35:40 AM »
I've heard it explained this way:

If the 12th defender knows he is the 12th player and is trying to get off the field = Live Ball Foul
If the 12th defender has no idea he is the 12th player and is not trying to get off the field = Dead Ball Foul

That's how we have been instructed to work it with two variations on the 12th man leaving the field:

1. When his next step after the snap lands out of bounds - no foul
2. When he is so far onto the field (well inside the numbers) that he may interfere with the play - shut it down.

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: 12 Men on Defense
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 02:00:29 PM »
I think the original intent of the rule was to shut down a Team A play if it could be shutdown. No time runs off the clock and we don't have to bring any touchdowns back. Plus, no offsetting fouls. I don't think serious thought or discussion was given toward Team B in this situation. Ideally, we'd flag Team B as a live ball so the offense wouldn't be at a disadvantage by showing a formation that gave away a play call if we DID shut it down.

To me, the bulletin does 2 things: first, it gives us an out by letting us do a Team B live ball foul; and second, it seems to indicate they'll change or clarify the rule next spring.