Scrimmage kick play

[KFox1979]

4-10 from k45.  Scrimmage kick first touch by k at r35.  R picks up at r20.  R fumbles at r25. K recovers.  R held during kick beyond expanded neutral zone.  What is the result?

[mbyron]

K cannot keep the ball due to first touching. K options:

• accept penalty for R's foul, PSK, enforce 10 yards from end of kick (assuming holding was upfield), R 1/10 @ R10, clock on the snap
• decline penalty for R's foul, R's ball at spot of first touching, R1/10 @ R35, clock on the snap

K will ordinarily accept the penalty.

[bbeagle]

Just a foul occurring during the down, negates first touching. The foul does not have to be accepted or declined, just a flag thrown.

K will decline the PSK penalty and take the ball.

[NCVAReferee]

Since K ends up with the ball, PSK is not an option for enforcement.  If K accepts R foul, it will be K 1/10 @ R-45, as enforcement is from the previous spot (loose ball play).  If K declines, which they won't, R can have the ball at the spot of first touching because R did not foul AFTER the first touching.

[NCVAReferee]

To clarify, R did not foul AFTER R's touching of the kick...

[mbyron]

Since K ends up with the ball, PSK is not an option for enforcement.  If K accepts R foul, it will be K 1/10 @ R-45, as enforcement is from the previous spot (loose ball play).  If K declines, which they won't, R can have the ball at the spot of first touching because R did not foul AFTER the first touching.

This, except for the last sentence. My previous ruling is wrong.

R fouling after R touches the kick negates first touching.

[Atlanta Blue]

Just a foul occurring during the down, negates first touching. The foul does not have to be accepted or declined, just a flag thrown.

This is not true.  Any ACCEPTED foul negates first touching.  Any foul by R AFTER they have touched the kick negates first touching, whether accepted or declined.  6-2-5

[golfingref]

Here is my take:
PSK not an option as K ends up with the ball.
R foul during scrimmage kick, previous spot enforcement.
Accepted penalty would result in 1st down for K at R-45.
Declined penalty by K would give R ball at spot of first touching.

[mbyron]

Here is my take:
PSK not an option as K ends up with the ball.
R foul during scrimmage kick, previous spot enforcement.
Accepted penalty would result in 1st down for K at R-45.
Declined penalty by K would give R ball at spot of first touching.

Why didn't NCVAReferee think of that? 

[bbeagle]

This is not true.  Any ACCEPTED foul negates first touching.  Any foul by R AFTER they have touched the kick negates first touching, whether accepted or declined.  6-2-5

I'm sorry. Any foul by R AFTER the first-touching, whether the foul is accepted or declined, negates the first touching. Thank you for correcting me.

[Atlanta Blue]

I'm sorry. Any foul by R AFTER the first-touching, whether the foul is accepted or declined, negates the first touching. Thank you for correcting me.

Now you've got it!   

[mbyron]

I'm sorry. Any foul by R AFTER the first-touching, whether the foul is accepted or declined, negates the first touching. Thank you for correcting me.

Nope, still not quite right. A foul by R after R has touched the ball, accepted or declined, negates first touching.

(Too quick, AB!)

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is
canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if
the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down." 6-2-5

[Atlanta Blue]

(Too quick, AB!)

"The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is
canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if
the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down." 6-2-5

You're right.  I quoted the rule myself, and then didn't read bbeagle's response properly!  Guess that's what an IW feels like, huh?

[mbyron]

Guess that's what an IW feels like, huh?

Oh, I hope you NEVER know!

[maybrefguy]

As I'm trying to think this through, K can accept the penalty and take the ball 1st and 10 at R45 or decline the penalty and take the ball where they recovered it.  1st touching is out and this isn't PSK.  Is that right?

[mbyron]

As I'm trying to think this through, K can accept the penalty and take the ball 1st and 10 at R45 or decline the penalty and take the ball where they recovered it.  1st touching is out and this isn't PSK.  Is that right?

No. If K declines the penalty, R will still have the right to take the ball at the spot of first touching. R did not foul after R touched the ball, so the only way first touching is negated is by an accepted penalty.

K's options are (as NCVAReferee posted in Reply #3):

Accept the penalty: K ball 1/10 @ R45, or

Decline the penalty: R ball 1/10 @ spot of first touching.

[maybrefguy]

Thanks