Author Topic: Can Team A try extra point?  (Read 5764 times)

Offline bbeagle

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Can Team A try extra point?
« on: September 07, 2012, 09:32:06 AM »
This was originally a question I had with NCAA, but now exists with NFHS:

Play: Last game of the season. Team A scores a touchdown with 0:00 on the clock in the 4th quarter. Team A leads 12-11. Normally, there would be no extra point try, as Team A wins.

HOWEVER, Team A needs to win by 4+ points to go to the playoffs. Team A coach would like to execute the try, and get an intentional safety on the try to tie the score at 12-12, and then try to win in overtime by 4+ points to make the playoffs.

Is this allowed, as the points are needed for playoff qualification?

(This would be similar to NCAA team leading by 2, and on the try, 'intentionally' throwing an interception to Team B and allowing them to score a 2-point touchdown to tie the game up and force overtime)

Intentional safeties are always allowed in football, and happen frequently enough, that I don't think a 'travesty of the game' is being committed.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2012, 09:35:59 AM by bbeagle »

Offline maybrefguy

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 09:53:56 AM »
First, the NFHS rules say you try that point, because the points will matter for playoff qualifications (8-3-1 exception).  Second, we hashed this out earlier, and I'm not honestly sure what the answer is, but here is my best go.  I do not believe that B can score on a try in NFHS play.  The only possiblity is that the ball becomes dead in A's endzone in possession of A.  That is not only unlikely, but to make it happen might be a travesty of the game.

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 09:58:38 AM »
No it is not allowed. 3-3-3d "If a touchdown was scored, the try is attempted unless the touchdown is scored during the last down of the fourth period and the point(s) would not affect the outcome of the game or playoff qualifying." If the team can make the playoffs on the untimed down, then yes, if they cannot, then no. The try and the safety both hold the same weight as to whether the team makes the playoffs or not, which is none. Plus a safety on the try is 1 point right?

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 11:05:02 AM »
The ball is dead immediately on a try when B takes possession. B cannot score on a try (see rule book), but B may be able to score on the try (see case book) LOL. In the best interest of the game, do not have B score on a try by A, you are asking for more headaches than you wish to deal with.

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 12:58:44 PM »
The ball is dead immediately on a try when B takes possession. B cannot score on a try (see rule book), but B may be able to score on the try (see case book) LOL. In the best interest of the game, do not have B score on a try by A, you are asking for more headaches than you wish to deal with.

Let's assume we have a crazy qb on a two point conversion that runs backwards toward his own end zone in order for there to be a safety. then what?

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 01:16:01 PM »
The Try is no good. No points. B cannot score on a try by A. See other thread (if you have an hour to kill).

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 01:19:59 PM »
The Try is no good. No points. B cannot score on a try by A. See other thread (if you have an hour to kill).

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 01:21:25 PM »
The Try is no good. No points. B cannot score on a try by A. See other thread (if you have an hour to kill).

B can so score on a try. Case Book Play 8.3.3 Situation B says that B can.

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 01:26:30 PM »
Beagle I appreciate your persistence. If you ever see this play, go ahead and give B the 1 point and then get the Case Book out and explain it to the coach. If I ever see this play (and I won't) I will rule it, "Try - No Good - No points" and then refer to the rule book if anyone asks me.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 01:31:43 PM »
Let's assume we have a crazy qb on a two point conversion that runs backwards toward his own end zone in order for there to be a safety. then what?

We don't have a crazy QB. We have a coach that wants to tie the game up 12-12 so he can play the overtime period to get a touchdown and win 18-12, thus going to the playoffs instead of winning 12-11 and not going to the playoffs.

Taking a safety has never been a travesty of the game. I'm winning 16-10, instead of punting from my own endzone and allowing the other team a short field, I take a safety, still winning 16-12, and kick deep. How would this different situation be a 'travesty'? If the rules allow a safety, and it's to the offense's advantage to use this rule, it should be legal both during play and during a try.

Would ALLOWING a team to score a touchdown when you're winning 16-15 be a travesty as well? Or is this good coaching, because being down 22-16 with 1:00 left is a lot better than being ahead 16-15 with the ball on the 3, and the opposing team trying a field goal with 0:02 on the clock.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but why if something is LEGAL according to the rules or case book, can't someone use it to their advantage? Just last year someone out-of-bounds could influence the play and bat a ball back in-bounds if they just jumped up in the air. That was stupid, but 'allowed' according to the rules writers. If the rules writers decide that a 1-point safety can be awarded to B, why would using this rule be illegal?



Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 01:33:31 PM »
Beagle I appreciate your persistence. If you ever see this play, go ahead and give B the 1 point and then get the Case Book out and explain it to the coach. If I ever see this play (and I won't) I will rule it, "Try - No Good - No points" and then refer to the rule book if anyone asks me.

The new 'catch' interpretation of a receiver jumping up and being caught and carried out-of-bounds forward or backwards (with forwards being no catch, and backwards being a good catch) is ONLY in the case book, NOT the rule book, so you would award no catch in both cases then because the rule book doesn't have this exception?

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 01:39:09 PM »
Beagle, I am not disagreeing with your logic. If it is me, the ruling will be "try is not good - no points". I have complete support of the Rule Book for that decision.

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 02:07:37 PM »
I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding here. bbeagle is just inquiring on whether or not a try after touchdown should actually occur, and I say no.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 02:13:10 PM »
Beagle, I am not disagreeing with your logic. If it is me, the ruling will be "try is not good - no points". I have complete support of the Rule Book for that decision.

I think we're in general agreement that the Case Book play is wrong, and I think we'd both do the same thing (try no good)   ^no.... but if you had a coach who called time-out before the play, and knew the case book play, explained the situation to you, would you rule it differently?

Offline ECILLJ

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 02:18:29 PM »
no

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 02:20:17 PM »
regardless, the try should never take place anyway

Offline Tom.OH

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 02:36:52 PM »
If the coach knew he needed to win by 4 points he should have:
1) played better offence and scored more points.
2) played better defense and held the other team to less points.
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Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 04:02:04 PM »
Where I work, rules for making the playoffs are so complex that I would not know if one team needed the points on the try to make it. Therefore, I would always allow the team the attempt if a TD is scored during the last timed play of the game.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 04:30:58 PM »
Beagle, your last 3 posts seem to deal with something a coach wants to do.

The rules aren't adjustable to what some wild whim of a coach.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2012, 07:58:54 AM »
The rules aren't adjustable to what some wild whim of a coach.

I'm not saying that. What a team wants to do on the last play of the game is sometimes up to the coach, not us.

For example, last play of the game, Team K punts to the K30 where it is fair caught by Team R with 0:00 in the 4th quarter. It IS up to the coach of Team R if there is another play in the game. If Team R decides to take the ball 1st and 10 at that spot, that's not allowed - the game is over. However, if Team R decides to take a free kick at the point of the fair catch, that IS allowed with 0:00 on the game clock, as it is considered a continuation of the play.

Do we ask the coach those situations? No. But if the coach tells us he wants to free kick, we must allow him to.


Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2012, 08:00:00 AM »
I'm not saying that. What a team wants to do on the last play of the game is sometimes up to the coach, not us.

For example, last play of the game, Team K punts to the K30 where it is fair caught by Team R with 0:00 in the 4th quarter. It IS up to the coach of Team R if there is another play in the game. If Team R decides to take the ball 1st and 10 at that spot, that's not allowed - the game is over. However, if Team R decides to take a free kick at the point of the fair catch, that IS allowed with 0:00 on the game clock, as it is considered a continuation of the play.

Do we ask the coach those situations? No. But if the coach tells us he wants to free kick, we must allow him to or we are not following the rules in the rule book.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2012, 07:51:15 PM »
For example, last play of the game, Team K punts to the K30 where it is fair caught by Team R with 0:00 in the 4th quarter. It IS up to the coach of Team R if there is another play in the game. If Team R decides to take the ball 1st and 10 at that spot, that's not allowed - the game is over. However, if Team R decides to take a free kick at the point of the fair catch, that IS allowed with 0:00 on the game clock, as it is considered a continuation of the play.

Where did you ever get this interpretation?

Offline Curious

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2012, 07:55:54 PM »
I'm not saying that. What a team wants to do on the last play of the game is sometimes up to the coach, not us.

For example, last play of the game, Team K punts to the K30 where it is fair caught by Team R with 0:00 in the 4th quarter. It IS up to the coach of Team R if there is another play in the game. If Team R decides to take the ball 1st and 10 at that spot, that's not allowed - the game is over. However, if Team R decides to take a free kick at the point of the fair catch, that IS allowed with 0:00 on the game clock, as it is considered a continuation of the play.

Do we ask the coach those situations? No. But if the coach tells us he wants to free kick, we must allow him to.

WHAT?  On what rule could you base this conclusion?  A fair catch has some "benefits"; but extension of a period is not one of them. You might have this confused with Case Book play 3.3.3G - which allows the extension of a period on KCI (a penalty) if an awarded fair catch is accepted

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2012, 09:58:23 PM »
The new 'catch' interpretation of a receiver jumping up and being caught and carried out-of-bounds forward or backwards (with forwards being no catch, and backwards being a good catch) is ONLY in the case book, NOT the rule book...
It's been established the play from the Case Book I believe you are referencing is wrong.
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Offline bbeagle

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Re: Can Team A try extra point?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2012, 10:23:43 AM »
Where did you ever get this interpretation?

Wow. You're right.

The NFL free-kick is an extension of the period, but the NFHS is not. (At least not until a case book play comes in that allows it  :)  )

I guess I'm glad I've never had a fair catch caught with 0:00, and a coach choosing the option to free kick. Thank you for making me re-read those rules.