Author Topic: Chop Block  (Read 5250 times)

Offline AFSST

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Chop Block
« on: September 09, 2012, 08:55:17 AM »
Question about the chop block:

Rule 2-3-8: Chop block is a combination block by two or more teammates against an opponent other than the runner, with or without delay, where one of the blocks is low (at the knee or below) and one of the blocks is high (above the knee).

The key words here are combination block, with or without delay, and at the knee or below. 

I don't see the words "simultaneous engagement."  How do we rule the following situations:

Offensive tackle drives the defensive lineman backward with a block below the knee.  They are no longer touching.  Immediately, the offensive guard hits the same lineman above the knee.  Or, the OT drives the DL backward with a high block and creates separation, then almost immediately, the G dives at his knees (while the ball is in the FBZ).  The key here is the first blocker is no longer touching the DL when the second blocker engages, but the contact is almost at the same time.

How do you interpret this?  I know a longer time difference between the two blocks would be okay (as long as the ball is in the FBZ during the low block).  I'm just wondering if the almost immediate second block meets the spirit of the rule (to protect the opponent).

I think the time of separation allowed before they become separate blocks is a judgment call, but in most cases you'd consider two blocks on the same player as a combination block.
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Offline maven

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 11:05:02 AM »
I think the time of separation allowed before they become separate blocks is a judgment call, but in most cases you'd consider two blocks on the same player as a combination block.

I agree. When in doubt, err on the side of safety and flag it.
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 11:10:06 AM »
I don't see an issue.  As long as the initial blocker is no longer engaged, it's not a chop block.

My question would be do you really think the second block is not an illegal block below the waist?  I don't see plays where there's time for a second block below the waist before the FBZ has dissolved.

Offline AFSST

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2012, 01:49:34 PM »

My question would be do you really think the second block is not an illegal block below the waist?  I don't see plays where there's time for a second block below the waist before the FBZ has dissolved.

Sure there can be a second block.  The FBZ dissolves when the ball leaves the FBZ.  During a running play, the ball doesn't leave the FBZ for a second or two.  That's plenty of time for two blocks on an opponent.
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2012, 02:18:46 PM »
During a running play, the ball doesn't leave the FBZ for a second or two.  That's plenty of time for two blocks on an opponent.

Well, I disagree. The FBZ extends 3 yards from the LOS.  The QB is already 1 1/2 to 2 yards in the backfield when he gets the ball.  Most QBs take a two step drop when handing the ball off, so now the FBZ is gone.  I don't see that as having time for an initial block, a disengagement and a second block. JMHO

If you're truly concerned with protecting the opponent, it seems to me that the second block is more likely to be illegal because it's BBW.

Offline Roscoe

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 08:50:54 AM »
I don't see an issue.  As long as the initial blocker is no longer engaged, it's not a chop block.

I have to say I agree with this

Offline maven

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 09:35:58 AM »
My question would be do you really think the second block is not an illegal block below the waist?  I don't see plays where there's time for a second block below the waist before the FBZ has dissolved.
I initially misread the OP as stating that the second block was above the waist. In fact, it says that the second block is above the knee, which might or might not be above the waist.  I suspect the OP meant to say that it was above the waist.

You're right to ask whether this block is legal: if it's below the waist, the fact that it's later than the first block or above the knee will be irrelevant. It will be BBW, but not a chop block. If it's above the waist, then it's legal.

I also agree that there is not time for a second block before the FBZ dissolves. By philosophy, the linemen may legally BBW on their first charge after the snap. When the QB turns to hand off, the ball has left the zone, even if technically he's only 2.5 yards behind the LOS: this is a safety consideration, and we should not be looking for ways to preserve the FBZ in order to permit what would otherwise be illegal blocks.
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 10:19:05 AM »
...we should not be looking for ways to preserve the FBZ in order to permit what would otherwise be illegal blocks.
+1
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 12:49:04 PM »
By philosophy, the linemen may legally BBW only on their first charge after the snap.

All coaches should be forced to repeat this during every practice.

Offline maven

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 01:01:54 PM »
All coaches should be forced to repeat this during every practice.
My crew had a game last season where the (quite annoying) coach asked us about blocking before the game. Red flags and alarm bells: his kids cut all the time, probably 2/3 of his running plays.

He tried to convince us that their "short shotgun" formation kept the ball in the FBZ, so that his pulling guards were allowed to cut as the back approached the line. Wanted to discuss that a LONG time...  hEaDbAnG
Quality is not an act, it is a habit.
Aristotle

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2012, 03:35:17 PM »
I posed this question to a group of officials and coaches the other day- "If we are truly worried about player safety at all levels of play, when are we going to legislate BBW back out of football?"

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2012, 03:44:47 PM »
I posed this question to a group of officials and coaches the other day- "If we are truly worried about player safety at all levels of play, when are we going to legislate BBW back out of football?"
Unfortunately, it won't happen in the collegiate or pro game anytime soon.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline VALJ

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2012, 09:54:38 PM »
I posed this question to a group of officials and coaches the other day- "If we are truly worried about player safety at all levels of play, when are we going to legislate BBW back out of football?"

+1

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »
Rogers Redding said if he had his way, it would be eliminated in the NCAA (except for close line play).  The NFHS has made much more progress on this than has the NCAA.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2012, 10:11:03 AM »
Rogers Redding said if he had his way, it would be eliminated in the NCAA (except for close line play).
True, but that won't happen so long as there are certain rules committee members with a vote.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline FBUmp

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2012, 12:09:27 PM »
True, but that won't happen so long as there are certain rules committee members with a vote.

Ture in HS as well.  There are those who have tried to eliminate it but it's never had enough support.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2012, 07:36:23 PM »
Ture in HS as well.  There are those who have tried to eliminate it but it's never had enough support.

In HS, it has been eliminated with the exception of interior line blocking (with all of the appropriate limitations).  It will never be eliminated there at any level, just as you can legally clip or block on the back in those situations.

Offline FBUmp

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Re: Chop Block
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2012, 08:48:54 PM »
In HS, it has been eliminated with the exception of interior line blocking (with all of the appropriate limitations).  It will never be eliminated there at any level, just as you can legally clip or block on the back in those situations.

Yes, I understand it's been eliminated except for the interior line.

But there are still those on the rules committee that would like to eliminate on the interior line as well.

Remember, nothing is always or never.