Author Topic: You Thought It Was Bad Before...  (Read 32284 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« on: September 24, 2012, 10:53:50 PM »
Wait till the morning comes...After the Monday night game, fairly or unfairly, the League will have to settle with the refs.  This is not going to be pretty.

Offline BamaRef

  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • FAN REACTION: +7/-1
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2012, 10:56:43 PM »
We may have just seen the breaking point.

Offline dvasques

  • *
  • Posts: 508
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-2
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2012, 10:57:22 PM »
You'd think maybe the refs would get better every game with practice and all that but no... it's the other way around

Offline SD_Casey

  • *
  • Posts: 138
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-1
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2012, 11:00:29 PM »
Boy oh boy.

I imagine most of the refstripes community is logging on right about now.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2012, 11:02:18 PM »
Let's be perfectly honest...was there 1 mistake made tonight that we have never seen a "real" NFL ref make?  I don't think so.

Offline dvasques

  • *
  • Posts: 508
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-2
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2012, 11:34:25 PM »
Situation and game management, I think

buckshot

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 01:40:51 AM »
Fair or not, I think there will be a massive outcry from fans, players and coaches after the games from this round. I agree the replacements have been under a much brighter spotlight however the mistakes from this weekend are going to turn the PR battle up to the point where I cannot see the NFL holding out any longer.

Offline NorCalMike

  • *
  • Posts: 770
  • FAN REACTION: +23/-8
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 02:48:56 AM »
Didn't get to watch the game tonight but was disgusted with the officiating in the Patriots/Ravens Game. Although not a bad as awarding a touchdown for Seattle, there are were at least two phantom defensive holding calls that extended Raven's drives that ending in touchdowns.

Hopefully this will create a atmosphere of compromise on both sides of the dispute.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2012, 06:24:04 AM »
If you missed it, the final (well..except for the PAT) play in the Monday night game.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3435
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2012, 07:18:29 AM »
The final TD play was badly handled by the crew. First, I grant you that PI is rarely called on Hail Mary passes, but a two handed push causing the defender to fall should be called. Second, I really don't see how they could have ruled a simultaneous catch, the GB player clearly completed the catch before the Seattle receiver grabbed the ball. And I'm a Bears fan who always wants GB to lose.

I almost thought that the crew had been bought by the NFLRA to speed up the negotiations...

RickKY

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2012, 08:05:42 AM »
The final TD play was badly handled by the crew. First, I grant you that PI is rarely called on Hail Mary passes, but a two handed push causing the defender to fall should be called. Second, I really don't see how they could have ruled a simultaneous catch, the GB player clearly completed the catch before the Seattle receiver grabbed the ball. And I'm a Bears fan who always wants GB to lose.

I almost thought that the crew had been bought by the NFLRA to speed up the negotiations...

My emphasis added above in bold.

Make sure you fully understand the completed portion of your statement above.  Just getting your hands on the ball is not a completion.  You musty return to the ground in control of the ball.  It could be argues that both players had control when they came to the ground.  Does anyone know if there is a "when in doubt" ruling for this type of play?

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 3491
  • FAN REACTION: +133/-24
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2012, 08:48:26 AM »
A catch in the NFL is defined differently than in the NCAA or NFL.  I've no idea personally what the correct ruling would be at that level.   I guess we'll find out later today from the League office.

These guys have all officiated at a higher level than I likely ever will.  No matter what one's personal opinion is about them, they are out there doing the job assigned.  I am reluctant to criticize anymore than I want to be critiqued by some fan in the stands this Friday night.

If the players are truly vexed over all this the remedy is simple- don't take the field next Sunday.  Declare it a workplace safety issue under their contract and let the lawyers sort it out.

I doubt they will as they want that game check.

Offline Osric Pureheart

  • *
  • Posts: 592
  • FAN REACTION: +18/-7
  • 1373937 or 308?
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2012, 09:35:27 AM »
The NFL rule in that situation says that it's only simultaneous possession if both players gain control of the ball at the same time.  If one guy gets control first and then maintains it throughout the process of completing the catch, without ever losing his control, it's his ball, full stop, can't ever be simultaneous possession no matter what the other guy does.

What I suspect has happened is that the one guy who ruled TD flashed back in the heat of the moment to the NCAA rule, which doesn't have such a provision, and that's what got him thinking that simultaneous possession was a possible call.  There was something else like that during one of the 1pm games on Sunday where a receiver went up for a catch, got one foot down, then kicked the pylon with his other foot and got ruled out of bounds; except in the NFL, the pylon is by rule neither inbounds nor out and what matters is where the foot eventually comes down.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3435
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 09:51:54 AM »
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know if the requirement of maintaning possession through the process while going to the ground applies when an opponent is attempting to secure the ball. If so, then it would have been a catch and not an interception. It still should have been OPI.

As to criticizing fellow officials, they gave up that part of the brotherhood advantage when they decided to become scabs.

I really want to hear what the league has to say.

Offline ThomasG

  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 10:25:08 AM »
My two cents worth (if THAT much):  This all may have happened on the last play of regulation, but it wasn't the only play in regulation.  If  I had the MVP of the league last year and the highest scoring offesnse in the league last year and I let that MVP take 8-9 (I lost count) sacks and come up with zero points after 15 minutes of possession in the first half, I'm not in the best position to be criticizing anyone but myself for having to wait until the last play to pull out a victory.

Reminds me of the time my child did sub-par work for a whole semester and failed a course by one point on the final, and tried to blame the teacher for his 'F'.

I personally think whatever the initial call on the field was, the replay would not have overturned it.  Which means the call that stood was made without the benefit of 7 different angles at super slo-motion.

110

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 10:53:03 AM »
I'm not a professional league ref, and never will be. But every fibre of my being looked at the live ball angle, and saw two things:
a) OPI
b) Interception.


« Last Edit: September 25, 2012, 11:02:35 AM by Livin' in the pit »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3435
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2012, 01:00:14 PM »
As I understand the NFL replay, the call on the field could not be reviewed in either case. And yes, GB had 59:50 minutes to win, but still this was a very bad situation officiating-wise.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2012, 01:38:48 PM »
The NFL has spoken so now everyone can shut up and move in..nothing to see here.  ;-)  Some are saying this supports the way the game ended.  All I can say is those folks must be Seahawks fans.

The NFL's statement:

In Monday's game between the Green Bay Packers and Seattle Seahawks, Seattle faced a 4th-and-10 from the Green Bay 24 with eight seconds remaining in the game.

 Seattle quarterback Russell Wilson threw a pass into the end zone. Several players, including Seattle wide receiver Golden Tate and Green Bay safety M.D. Jennings, jumped into the air in an attempt to catch the ball.

 While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay.

 When the players hit the ground in the end zone, the officials determined that both Tate and Jennings had possession of the ball. Under the rule for simultaneous catch, the ball belongs to Tate, the offensive player. The result of the play was a touchdown.

 Replay Official Howard Slavin stopped the game for an instant replay review. The aspects of the play that were reviewable included if the ball hit the ground and who had possession of the ball. In the end zone, a ruling of a simultaneous catch is reviewable. That is not the case in the field of play, only in the end zone.

Referee Wayne Elliott determined that no indisputable visual evidence existed to overturn the call on the field, and as a result, the on-field ruling of touchdown stood. The NFL Officiating Department reviewed the video today and supports the decision not to overturn the on-field ruling following the instant replay review.

 The result of the game is final.

 Applicable rules to the play are as follows:

 A player (or players) jumping in the air has not legally gained possession of the ball until he satisfies the elements of a catch listed here.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3 of the NFL Rule Book defines a catch:

 A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

 (a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).

 When a player (or players) is going to the ground in the attempt to catch a pass, Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 1 states:

 Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

 Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

 Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

chymechowder

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2012, 05:46:15 PM »
"While the ball is in the air, Tate can be seen shoving Green Bay cornerback Sam Shields to the ground. This should have been a penalty for offensive pass interference, which would have ended the game. It was not called and is not reviewable in instant replay."

Is this right?  I know it wouldnt end the game in NCAA. Not sure about NFL but OPI isn't a loss of down, is it?

maven

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2012, 06:26:13 PM »
Is this right?  I know it wouldnt end the game in NCAA. Not sure about NFL but OPI isn't a loss of down, is it?

No LOD, but time runoff?

Offline mishatx

  • *
  • Posts: 653
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-11
  • Free Agent
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2012, 07:12:37 PM »
NFL 8-2-b says "If there is a foul by the offense, there shall be no extension of the period. If the foul occurs on the last play of the half, a score by the offense is not counted."

Offline NorCalMike

  • *
  • Posts: 770
  • FAN REACTION: +23/-8
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2012, 02:42:47 AM »
If you missed it, the final (well..except for the PAT) play in the Monday night game.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hTFMD5NX1Q
Thanks Mike, I saw it about 99 times on Sportcenter this afternoon. They did a whole hour on the refs.

chymechowder

  • Guest
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2012, 09:52:56 AM »
Thanks, mishatx!

Even though they knew what they were getting in to, I feel bad for the official. Gotta be lousy to have sportscenter putting up a graphic with your name saying that junior college is the highest you'd ever worked before.  (On the other hand, I can certainly see the other side of the coin, namely: if you've only done junior college....)

But even at the highschool (and jr college) level, guys should know that on a play like that, with two officials standing over that mass, you gotta have some communication--or at least some eye contact---before you go up with your own signal.

That's the part that confuses me. I can see being confused by some of the different rules/enforcements. Or having trouble adjusting to the speed or the yelling coaches.  But making eye contact with a fellow official in the endzone on something like that is is pretty basic at every level.

Offline ThomasG

  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2012, 11:19:36 AM »
I would like to say that the lack of communication might be due to the fact that this crew probably hasn't been together that long, but I can't.   Even in games in which you are a last minute replace on a crew with whom you've never worked, it is a basic mechanic to check with other officials - especially one as close to the play as you were.  If he disagrees, then that can be discussed, if he agrees, it's a shared decision and more defensible.

Most of the problems I'm seeing with the replacement officials can be attributed to a lack of confidence.  They are not accustomed to the stage on which they find themselves (and nothing can prepare you for it in advance).  They look like I must have looked on my first Varsity game, during which I kept thinking to myself "Maybe the coach is right and that SHOULD have been a holding call."

The fact that they know they have hardly any support outside of their own replacement ranks is also contributing to this.  Only time in this assignment will give them the confidence they lack and the NFLRA (which must be secretly - if not publicly - revelling in this aftermath) may be just the ones to ensure they get the time they need.

Still think the Packers lost the game in accordance with the rules.


Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8773
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: You Thought It Was Bad Before...
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2012, 03:27:14 PM »
I'm sure the fact that Packers QB was sacked 8 times in the 1sthalf had nothing to do with the loss.


Looks like it is coming to an end, with the "real" refs possibly taking the field this weekend.