Free Kick Play

[Rulesman]

To start the game, Team A's soccer-style kicker places the ball on the tee at the left hash mark on the A-40. Following the ready for play, he approaches the ball with the intent to kick it diagonally across the field to the right side. Before making contact with the ball, he sets his "plant" foot approximately 1 yard IN FRONT of the free kick line (at the A-41) after which he kicks the ball.

Ruling? Cite your rule reference(s).

For what it's worth, this play occurred in a game last week.

[FBUmp]

2-14-3
A free-kick formation is a formation used for a free-kick down.
Following the ready-for-play for a free-kick down and until the ball is kicked:
a. All R players must be behind their free-kick line.
b. All K players, other than the kicker and holder, must be behind their free kick line.

The kicker isn't required to be behind the FK line when he kicks the ball.

[Rulesman]

2-14-3
A free-kick formation is a formation used for a free-kick down.
Following the ready-for-play for a free-kick down and until the ball is kicked:
a. All R players must be behind their free-kick line.
b. All K players, other than the kicker and holder, must be behind their free kick line.

The kicker isn't required to be behind the FK line when he kicks the ball.

Read 6-1-3 and see if you change your mind.

[Curious]

Read 6-1-3 and see if you change your mind.

I don't see any reason for UMP (or anyone) to change his mind.  Not sure if you're hanging your hat, Rulesman, on the words "place kick holder"; but 2-24-7 is clear that a "place kick" may be used for a free kick and that it may be held on the ground by a tee or a "place kick holder" who (under 2-24-3 and 6-1-3) may be beyond K's free kick line prior to the ball being kicked.

[Rulesman]

I don't see any reason for UMP (or anyone) to change his mind.  Not sure if you're hanging your hat, Rulesman, on the words "place kick holder"; but 2-24-7 is clear that a "place kick" may be used for a free kick and that it may be held on the ground by a tee or a "place kick holder" who (under 2-24-3 and 6-1-3) may be beyond K's free kick line prior to the ball being kicked.

I'll let a few more weigh in before I tip the scale. I'm really just playing the devil's advocate here.

[FBUmp]

6-1-3 says the same thing.

After the ball is marked ready for play and until it is kicked, no player, other than the kicker and the holder for a place kick may be beyond his freekick line.

Break it down if needed.  It means:

After the ball is marked ready for play and until it is kicked, no player, other than
(a) the kicker
(b) the holder for a place kick
may be beyond his freekick line.

[maven]

I'll let a few more weigh in before I tip the scale. I'm really just playing the devil's advocate here.

My guess is that this is a quibble with the rule. The rule permits a 'holder' and a 'kicker' to be beyond the free kick line. The holder is irrelevant, and when the player steps beyond the line he is not yet a kicker because he has not legally kicked the ball. So that could be encroachment, and the ball would be dead before the kick.

Be careful, Rulesman, some rookie is going to flag this and his white hat is going to take his head off!

[ECILLJ]

The intent of the rule is to allow the kicker to make the kick in one continuos motion, without being penalized for a neutral zone violation, because his plant foot precedes the kicking foot across the line. If the kicker crosses the line and does not make the kick in a continuos motion and then tries some type of trickery, I may have a flag. A more detailed description of the play is needed before I can give a definitive answer.

[maybrefguy]

I am not sure where you are going with this, other than the 1 yard over the free kick line seems a little excessive to me.  Both rules are clear that the kicker may be beyond the free kick line.  I tried to find a definition of a kicker, but I think it falls back to one who is in the motion of kicking.  Seems ok to me.

[Bob M.]

My guess is that this is a quibble with the rule. The rule permits a 'holder' and a 'kicker' to be beyond the free kick line. The holder is irrelevant, and when the player steps beyond the line he is not yet a kicker because he has not legally kicked the ball. So that could be encroachment, and the ball would be dead before the kick.

Be careful, Rulesman, some rookie is going to flag this and his white hat is going to take his head off!

REPLY: In that case, consider a similar conundrum:  From the left hash, QB fakes a sweep handoff to A2. A2 carries out the fake and gets pushed OOB. Are you blowing the whistle when A2 steps OOB? Why not? Since he's simulating having possession of a live ball he's a runner (by definition 2-32-13). And rule 4-2-2a says the ball is dead when "a runner goes out of bounds."

EDIT: By the way, the NCAA fixed this in their rule book by adding a definition a few years back for 'ball carrier' i.e. the player who is actually in possession of a live ball. Then they changed 4-2-2a to say the ball is dead when "...the ball carrier goes out of bounds."

[maven]

Reminds me of a zen football koan: when is a foul not a foul?

[VALJ]

Reminds me of a zen football koan: when is a foul not a foul?

Every play, since I seem to miss one damn near every play I work.

[maven]

Every play, since I seem to miss one darn near every play I work.

You have much to learn, grasshopper.

[Rulesman]

I'll let a few more weigh in before I tip the scale. I'm really just playing the devil's advocate here.

OK, now let's take it a step further. At the RFP, K16 (the kicker) is standing on the 41. Prior to kicking the ball diagonally across the field, he never gets behind the free kick line. You make the call.

[VALJ]

You have much to learn, grasshopper.

Yeah, I hear that damn near every play, too, thanks to the helpers on the sideline.   

[bbeagle]

OK, now let's take it a step further. At the RFP, K16 (the kicker) is standing on the 41. Prior to kicking the ball diagonally across the field, he never gets behind the free kick line. You make the call.

You make the call:

Team A wins the toss. Elects to KICK. Kicker starts on the 45, runs up to the ball, and kicks it backwards behind his own goal line and end line. SAFETY. Kicker starts on the 25, runs up to the ball, and kicks it backwards behind his own goal line and end line. SAFETY. Do you let this continue?

[Rulesman]

You make the call:

Team A wins the toss. Elects to KICK. Kicker starts on the 45, runs up to the ball, and kicks it backwards behind his own goal line and end line. SAFETY. Kicker starts on the 25, runs up to the ball, and kicks it backwards behind his own goal line and end line. SAFETY. Do you let this continue?

No, but that's not the question. Let's get back to the original topic.

[bbeagle]

No, but that's not the question. Let's get back to the original topic.

All players must be behind their free-kick lines before the ready. AFTER THE READY-FOR-PLAY, K or (holder) can go beyond this line.

[maven]

All players must be behind their free-kick lines before the ready. AFTER THE READY-FOR-PLAY, K or (holder) can go beyond this line.

Citation?

[bbeagle]

Citation?

2-7-8 Encroachment. Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

All players must be behind their free-kick lines before the ready. What I mean by this is before I whistle the free kick to start. I'm not blowing my ready-for-play whistle when there are players in the neutral zone.

6-2-3. After the ball is marked ready for play and until it is kicked, no player, other than the kicker and the holder for a place kick may be beyond his free kick line.

I am never marking the ball ready for play until everyone is on their own sides of the neutral zone. If the players aren't ready, I'm throwing a flag for delay of game.

If you want to be technical, look at 3-6-1. It seems that we can only mark the ball ready for play after it has been placed for a down. But the kick is not a down, and we don't place it either!

[maven]

2-7-8 Encroachment. Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

All players must be behind their free-kick lines before the ready. What I mean by this is before I whistle the free kick to start. I'm not blowing my ready-for-play whistle when there are players in the neutral zone.

6-2-3. After the ball is marked ready for play and until it is kicked, no player, other than the kicker and the holder for a place kick may be beyond his free kick line.

I am never marking the ball ready for play until everyone is on their own sides of the neutral zone. If the players aren't ready, I'm throwing a flag for delay of game.

If you want to be technical, look at 3-6-1. It seems that we can only mark the ball ready for play after it has been placed for a down. But the kick is not a down, and we don't place it either!

I asked you for a citation to show that all K players must be behind the free kick line BEFORE the RFP. You provided two references that apply AFTER the RFP.

A free kick occurs during a free kick down, and we do place it.

Still no support for your claim.

[bbeagle]

A free kick occurs during a free kick down, and we do place it.

I always hand the ball to the kicker at chest level. I never place a ball for a free kick - the kicker places the ball on the tee, or the holder does.

[Rulesman]

I asked you for a citation to show that all K players must be behind the free kick line BEFORE the RFP. You provided two references that apply AFTER the RFP...Still no support for your claim.

Agree with maven; provide a rule reference. FWIW, you walked right into where I was going with this play.

[bbeagle]

I asked you for a citation to show that all K players must be behind the free kick line BEFORE the RFP.

3-7-5. An entering substitute shall be on his team's side of the neutral zone when the ball is snapped or free kicked.

If the Kicker starts 5 yards in advance of the 40, and never gets behind the 40, he's considered a substitute, and we have illegal participation when he kicks the ball (9-6-3).

2-32-15. A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone.

(There is a player vacancy if there are less than 11 players on the field)

If you want to say that a player can TECHNICALLY be standing at the 45 when we whistle the ready-for-play, well, TECHNICALLY there could be nobody on the field at all. I don't understand your point - it makes no sense. Around our area, we are taught not to whistle the ready-for-play until both teams have 11 players ready behind their free-kick lines. If a team has only 10 players, the linesman/linejudge stay in the middle of the field. If it takes too long, we have a delay of game.

[maven]

3-7-5. An entering substitute shall be on his team's side of the neutral zone when the ball is snapped or free kicked.

If the Kicker starts 5 yards in advance of the 40, and never gets behind the 40, he's considered a substitute, and we have illegal participation when he kicks the ball (9-6-3).

2-32-15. A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone.

(There is a player vacancy if there are less than 11 players on the field)

If you want to say that a player can TECHNICALLY be standing at the 45 when we whistle the ready-for-play, well, TECHNICALLY there could be nobody on the field at all. I don't understand your point - it makes no sense. Around our area, we are taught not to whistle the ready-for-play until both teams have 11 players ready behind their free-kick lines. If a team has only 10 players, the linesman/linejudge stay in the middle of the field. If it takes too long, we have a delay of game.

The substitution rules lack application to a team with 11 on the field preparing to free kick. Moreover, 3-7-5 violations are illegal substitution, not encroachment.

I have no truck with your procedure: IMO, that's exactly right, and the way my crew does it too. The discussion concerns the RULE, and no rule requires K to be behind their kick line before the RFP.

I take it that Rulesman's point is precisely the disconnect between our common-sensical practices and what the rules actually require.