LOD foul during kick play

[sj_31]

4/10 @ 50. K punts to R. R touches kick beyond NZ then ball is muffed back behind NZ where K (instead of just downing it and getting a new 1/10) recovers and starts running with it. During the down while K is running with the ball, K1 throws a forward pass from the A-45 to K2 at the B-30. The pass falls incomplete. K2 is flagged for OPI on the play.

Result?

[FBUmp]

1st and 10 for K at their own 35.

[sj_31]

Rule reference?

[maven]

Rule reference?

A lot of rules figure into this ruling. Let's break it down, and then you can see about which rule you'd like to inquire further.

1. Kick touched by R beyond the NZ: whoever is in possession at the end of the down will be awarded a new series.

2. IFP: this foul is ignored due to the more severe OPI foul.

3. OPI: 15 yards from the previous spot. Because A is awarded a new series, the LOD provision lapses.

The result is what FBUmp stated: A 1/10 @ A35, clock on the snap. B does have an option here: they could decline the yardage penalty for OPI (but I wouldn't even ask, and I'd be too busy explaining the ruling to the B coach ).

[sj_31]

@maven

How do you have an IFP, and if you did, then how could you have OPI as PI restrictions only apply to a legal forward pass? A/K can most certainly throw a legal forward pass in this case.

Where in the rulebook does it say that the LOD provision lapses because A/K is awarded a new series? It only states that "The loss of down aspect of the penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the LTG is reached after enforcement."

While I understand that R touched the ball beyond the NZ and thereby awarding a new series to the team in possession as the end of the down, there was no change of team possession during this down according to the definitions.

To get to the point, the question is this:

Which takes precendence? 5-2-5-f or 5-2-5-g?

[maven]

@maven

How do you have an IFP, and if you did, then how could you have OPI as PI restrictions only apply to a legal forward pass? A/K can most certainly throw a legal forward pass in this case.

Whoops. Right you are. Thought the pass was thrown @ R45, but then you couldn't have OPI.

Where in the rulebook does it say that the LOD provision lapses because A/K is awarded a new series? It only states that "The loss of down aspect of the penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the LTG is reached after enforcement."

While I understand that R touched the ball beyond the NZ and thereby awarding a new series to the team in possession as the end of the down, there was no change of team possession during this down according to the definitions.

To get to the point, the question is this:

Which takes precedence? 5-2-5-f or 5-2-5-g?

We don't need to determine that. Look at 2-7-2: K doesn't need the right to replay the down, since they get a new series in any case.

[sj_31]

I'll buy that. That's a great way to think of 2-7-2. Thanks!

[maven]

I'll buy that. That's a great way to think of 2-7-2. Thanks!

Not at all. In fact, to me this is the real fundamental, and it explains the correctness of "Fundamental" X.9:

"The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement."

[Central PA Ref]

Question for you guys. I mentioned this play to a friend of mine. He said he read this exact play and that it came from Referee magazine. He told me the magazine said that since the ball was behind the ENZ that K can "advance" the ball but that "advance" means run not pass. It stated that one they chose to throw a pass it nullifies that it was a kicking play and therefore following enforcement and the LOD it would be 1st and 10 at the 35 for B not for A. I cannot find anywhere in the rulebook where it stats that "advance" only means run like the magazine says....

thoughts?

[maven]

Question for you guys. I mentioned this play to a friend of mine. He said he read this exact play and that it came from Referee magazine. He told me the magazine said that since the ball was behind the ENZ that K can "advance" the ball but that "advance" means run not pass. It stated that one they chose to throw a pass it nullifies that it was a kicking play and therefore following enforcement and the LOD it would be 1st and 10 at the 35 for B not for A. I cannot find anywhere in the rulebook where it stats that "advance" only means run like the magazine says....

thoughts?

Your friend is mistaken. 'Advance' includes run, pass, or kick.

And your friend has fabricated or misinterpreted regarding the second run/pass/kick. It's still a kick; for instance, if A runs to the LTG, the clock would start on the snap due to the legal kick, even though there was no COP.

Referee messes up sometimes, but they wouldn't butcher this one so badly. See if you can get the actual play from the magazine to post, and we can discuss the real item.

[Curious]

Question for you guys. I mentioned this play to a friend of mine. He said he read this exact play and that it came from Referee magazine. He told me the magazine said that since the ball was behind the ENZ that K can "advance" the ball but that "advance" means run not pass. It stated that one they chose to throw a pass it nullifies that it was a kicking play and therefore following enforcement and the LOD it would be 1st and 10 at the 35 for B not for A. I cannot find anywhere in the rulebook where it stats that "advance" only means run like the magazine says....

thoughts?

And I thought we were doing so well with this play.....

2012 Case Book play 5.1.3D is almost the same play (without the OPI thrown in); but it makes it pretty clear that the pass is legal.

Your friend is mistaken. 'Advance' includes run, pass, or kick.

Now Maven, while I agree with your statement (common sense), it would probably be helpful to "Central PA" if we could provide a rule/interpretation reference.  Best I could find were Rule 1-1-1; but you have to substitute ADVANCE for "carry or pass or place kick";  5-1-1 talks about ADVANCING THE BALL - in four downs for a new series - but doesn't say how; and 8-2-1a actually uses ADVANCES in reference to scoring a TD.

I'm sure there are more such references; but "PA", it's now up to you to dig them out.

Probably more "distinctions without differences"......

[VALJ]

Question for you guys. I mentioned this play to a friend of mine. He said he read this exact play and that it came from Referee magazine. He told me the magazine said that since the ball was behind the ENZ that K can "advance" the ball but that "advance" means run not pass. It stated that one they chose to throw a pass it nullifies that it was a kicking play and therefore following enforcement and the LOD it would be 1st and 10 at the 35 for B not for A. I cannot find anywhere in the rulebook where it stats that "advance" only means run like the magazine says....

thoughts?

If K recovers the ball behind their line of scrimmage, they can do anything legal that they want to it - run, pass, or kick it again. 

If R touchs the legally kicked ball beyond the LOS, K picks it up behind the LOS, and then K throws an incomplete pass, do we have 1/10 for K, or for R?

[Ump33]

If K recovers the ball behind their line of scrimmage, they can do anything legal that they want to it - run, pass, or kick it again. 

If R touchs the legally kicked ball beyond the LOS, K picks it up behind the LOS, and then K throws an incomplete pass, do we have 1/10 for K, or for R?

These two Case Book should provide answers ...

5.1.3 SITUATION C: Fourth and 10 on K’s 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and: (a) falls on the ball at K’s 40-yard line; or (b) throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3; or (c) K1 punts the ball and R1 fair catches at his 30-yard line. RULING: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for the team in possession in (a), (b) and (c). In (a), it is a first down for K at K’s 40-yard line. In (b), the pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K’s ball at R’s 40-yard line. In (c), the second punt is legal as there had been no change of team possession. The ball belongs to R first and 10 on its own 30-yard line. (5-1-2f; 6-2-1; 7-5-1)
*5.1.3 SITUATION D: K’s ball, fourth and 2 at midfield. The scrimmage kick crosses the expanded neutral zone and is muffed by R at the R 40-yard line. The ball then bounds back behind the line of scrimmage and is recovered by K2 at K’s 43-yard line. K2 advances to K’s 49-yard line where he throws an incomplete pass to eligible receiver K80 at the R38. RULING: This is not an illegal forward pass as the ball was legally thrown behind the neutral zone. There has been no change of possession during the down. K is awarded a new series as the ball was touched by R beyond the expanded neutral zone and K is in possession at the end of the down. It will be K’s ball, first and 10 at midfield due to the incomplete pass. (7-52; 2-34-3; 5-1-3f; 7-5-5)

[Central PA Ref]

Hey guys.. Thanks. For the record I was on board with it being A's ball all along. I just couldn't figure out how to tell the guy he was wrong...thought maybe you guys could help me out.

Thank!!

[VALJ]

Forgot that was in the casebook, Ump.  Thanks!

Personally, I think that 5.1.3.D should also mention the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty we'd end up having to throw on R's head coach when he calls us dirty words after we tell him that K threw an incomplete pass on fourth down and no, it's not your ball, it's 1st and 10 for K.

[ECILLJ]

We will more than likely have an ineligible receiver downfield on the pass. How do we handle that penalty on this play?

[maven]

We will more than likely have an ineligible receiver downfield on the pass. How do we handle that penalty on this play?

It's a loose ball play, so the basic spot is the previous spot. 5 yard penalty from there if R accepts it.

K will still, however, receive a new series rather than replay the down. So enforce the penalty, then set the chains, 1/10, clock on the snap.