dual possesion

[zebraken]

a pass over the middle is caught at the same time by the reciever and a defenceman. they both have their hands on the ball vying for possesion for  about 8 to 10 steps across the field. the ball eventually falls to the ground. whats the call?

[buckshot]

IF they both maintained full contact with the ball for 8-10 steps or so, I'm saying fumble, live ball.

The simultaneous catch is another discussion, but not necessary in this case, I don't like the idea of simultaneous catch, I know it's technically possible, but should almost always be one of the players who has done more to demonstrate possession or made first possession.

[NorCalMike]

Not sure from the description if we can make a ruling. If this is a simultaneous catch then the ball is dead when they come to the ground.

If neither player has possession when they come to the ground and the continue to bobble the ball then when they drop it, it is incomplete.

[waltjp]

Right, Mike.  If this is truly a simultaneous catch then the ball is dead immediately and belongs to the offense.

[Atlanta Blue]

IF they both maintained full contact with the ball for 8-10 steps or so, I'm saying fumble, live ball.

The simultaneous catch is another discussion, but not necessary in this case, I don't like the idea of simultaneous catch, I know it's technically possible, but should almost always be one of the players who has done more to demonstrate possession or made first possession.

Wow, where to start?  As NorCal Mike said, simultaneous possession is an immediate dead ball, so the ball would have been dead LONG before they finished their 8-10 steps.

As for simulataneous possession, it has NOTHING to do with who has done more to demonstrate possession, and only has to do with "first possession" if one of the players has returned to the ground.

In FED rules (and this is the FED board), you have not established possession until you return to the ground.  Take this example: defender goes up high and grasps the ball firmly.  Remember, we can't say "catches" or "possesses" because those have very specific (and circular) definitions.  OK, so defender is holding the ball, and the receiver manages to get his hands on the ball AFTER the defender did, but BEFORE the get back to the ground.  Guess what you have?  Simultaneous possession, and a catch for the receiver, even though the defender "had" the ball first.

In the FED rules, everything that happens before they get back to the ground is one action.  The only thing that matters is who had "possession" when they got back to the ground.  If it was both of them, it doesn't matter who got it first, or "has done more to demonstrate possession."

Now this is different than the NFL rule, which is why the ending of the Seattle-Green Bay game was probably incorrect.  The NFL does use your philosophy of who had it first, even if both got it while in the air (although no rule set uses the "does more to demonstrate possession").  But don't apply the NFL philosophy to a high school game, the rules are very different.

[HLinNC]

What AB said, +1.

[zebraken]

to see if i can make it as clear as possible...the pass was high and they both jumped up to catch it. all 4 hands came to the ball at pretty much the same time. all 4 feet came down to the field at pretty much the same time. they continued to run across the field with the ball still above their heads at arms length, both pulling and tugging but neither giving an inch. they ran together like this for about 15 to 20 yards before the ball finally came loose and fell to the ground. i ruled incomplete but after the game we were discussing the play and had some disagreements. each argument had some merit in my opinion. one favored a fumble, another favored blowing it dead when the recievers feet returned to the ground and i favored incomplete

[maven]

zebraken, the problem is not lack of clarity by you. There are 2 components to a call, a judgment part and a rules part.

The rules part has already been provided to you: if the players both had possession (defined in 2-34-1) when they returned to the ground, then by rule the play is dead when they return to the ground, and the ball belongs to A (7-5-4). If neither player had possession before the ball came out, then it would be incomplete.

The judgment part is whether the players had joint possession. We can't help you here, at least not without some video. Providing more details is not likely to help: "4 hands on the ball" is not equivalent to "held or controlled."

If I had to guess, it sounds as if you judged joint possession but are looking for a way to justify your ruling of incomplete.

[zebraken]

"If I had to guess, it sounds as if you judged joint possession but are looking for a way to justify your ruling of incomplete"


yes..i think thats what im looking for....so im clear, the proper thing to do here would be to rule it dead when the recievers feet hit the ground even though they were both still running with the ball?

[maven]

so im clear, the proper thing to do here would be to rule it dead when the recievers feet hit the ground even though they were both still running with the ball?

Correct. Then you'll have to go explain 7-5-4 to the coaches.

[zebraken]

great..thank you for the help...

[buckshot]

My bad, I didn't realise this was on the FED board (we work NCAA based rules) and missed the dead ball after dual possession.

[VALJ]

Correct. Then you'll have to go explain 7-5-4 to the coaches.

And maybe throw a USC flag on the B coach, if he's unhappy enough.  Almost had to do that once (the only time I've ruled simultaneous possession) when we gave A the touchdown for simultaneous possession in the end zone.