Illegal Participation or Substitution?

[latinib]

As A breaks the huddle, B realizes they only have 10 players on the field. Prior to the snap, B11 enters the field on A's side of the line and is still on A's side of the line when the ball is snapped. B11 proceeds to B's side of the line without participating but does participate after crossing it. At a minimum, we have live ball illegal substitution. Do we also have illegal participation?

I contend that B11 became a player before he participated due to 2-32-15: "... A team member entering the field to fill a player vacancy remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone." Since he participated as a player, he doesn't meet any of the criteria in 9-6 for illegal participation and all we have is illegal substitution. I'm a relative newbie and have been told that I need to call illegal participation. I welcome your thoughts.

[FBUmp]

Do you own a Case Book?

3.7
If an entering substitute is not on his team’s side of the neutral zone at the snap, illegal substitution is considered to have occurred simultaneously with the snap.

If he then participates, it becomes a live-ball foul, illegal participation.

(3-7-6; 9-6-4c)

[HLinNC]

Ump, might want to read 3.7.5 Situation B as it is right on point with this scenario.  Says nothing about becoming an illegal participation foul.

IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player

[Curious]

IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player

You beat me to it HL.  This is NOT "IP"....just "IS"

Rule 2-32-15 describes the OP situation.  While the entering sub "remains a substitute until he is on his team's side of the neutral zone", he becomes a PLAYER "when he enters the field and communicates with a teammate or official, enters the huddle, is in position in a formation, or participates in the play".  Since he became a player (A11) when he participates, his only violation is not being on his side of the neutral zone at the snap = Illegal Substitution (3.7.5B)

[maven]

You beat me to it HL.  This is NOT "IP"....just "IS"

You are correct about the OP, which clearly states that the illegal sub is the 11th player.

In general, however, it could be either, depending on the situation. This is the point of the COMMENT referenced by FBUmp (and source of confusion).

If the sub is the 11th player (as in the OP), then all you've got is IS, whether he participates or no. His participation as the 11th player is not illegal, though his substitution is, since it was not completed prior to the snap.

If the sub is the 12th player, then you could have either IS or IP. If he does not participate during the down (say, turns and runs off the field), then all you have is IS. If he does participate (occupying a blocker, say), then that violates 9-6-4c. To have 12 participate during the down is IP.

[HLinNC]

Wolverine was pretty clear- 

B realizes they only have 10 players on the field

None of us do ourselves any favors here by extrapolating off the original posts.

[maven]

None of us do ourselves any favors here by extrapolating off the original posts.

I can tie the issue back to the OP: Wolverine was told that the foul in his play was IP. Someone was confused about when a sub running in late is IS and when it's IP.

I believe the discussion has helped to clarify the broader issue in a way that narrowly answering the OP ("No, it's just IS") might not have done.

[bbeagle]

I've got a question on this:

Illegal Participation is a spot foul, enforced using the all but one principle.

Illegal Participation does not occur until the substitute player actually participates.

Play 1: A is 1st and 10 on the B15. Player B1 goes on the field at the B40, the ball is snapped. Player B1 is running to the B35, then the QB scrambles around to that side of the field, and B1 instead of continuing towards the B15, blindsides the QB at the B30.

Is the foul for illegal participation enforced from the B30/B32/B40 (wherever B1 decided to 'participate')?

Play 2: A is 1st and 10 on the B15. Player B1 goes on the field at the B40, the ball is snapped. Player B1 is running to the B35, then the QB comes around to that side of the field, the QB gets hit, loses the ball, B1 recovers the ball at the B35, turns around, and scores a touchdown.

Is the foul for illegal participation enforced from the B35?

[HLinNC]

Actually bbeagle, its a live ball, basic spot foul.  What is your basic spot on the two plays?

Play 1- running play
Play 2- loose ball play

[bama_stripes]

Actually, bbeagle, in both of your plays the foul is on Team B.  Fouls by B are always from the basic spot.

[bbeagle]

Actually bbeagle, its a live ball, basic spot foul.  What is your basic spot on the two plays?

Play 1- running play
Play 2- loose ball play

Play 1  - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.

In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.

Is that right?

[bbeagle]

Actually, bbeagle, in both of your plays the foul is on Team B.  Fouls by B are always from the basic spot.

The 'foul' occurs at the point that B participates, but the foul is ENFORCED from the basic spot.

In Play 1, B 'fouled' at the B30/B32/B40, but it is ENFORCED from the B30.

[HLinNC]

Play 1  - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.

In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.

Is that right?

1) 
2)     <corrected 10-3-3b>

[Curious]

Play 1  - running play - where the QB got sacked. B30.
Play 2 - loose ball play - where the QB fumbled the ball. Let's say the B30.

In both those cases, 15 yard penalty from the B30. 1st and 5 for A from the B15.

Is that right?

What is the basic spot for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play?  The previous spot!

[bbeagle]

What is the basic spot for a foul which occurs during a loose ball play?  The previous spot!

No. If it's a loose ball incomplete pass, then it's the previous spot.

Otherwise it's the end of the run before the loose ball (where we mark the bean bag).

Am I forgetting a loose ball behind the line of scrimmage - is this different?

[HLinNC]

Curious- bb is correct, I cited the rule in my correction in the post.  Foul is enforced from the end of the related run which is why we carry that white/blue/black/orange (name your state's color here) beanbag.

[Curious]

Curious- bb is correct, I cited the rule in my correction in the post.  Foul is enforced from the end of the related run which is why we carry that white/blue/black/orange (name your state's color here) beanbag.

What?!!!!!!!

A loose ball play is defined as a free or scrimmage kick, legal forward pass, backward pass, illegal kick or fumble made by A behind the neutral zone prior to a COP.  It includes the run(s) that precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.

The basic spot for a foul during a loose ball play is the previous spot (except PSK fouls or RTP).  The all-but-one tells us that all fouls are enforced from the basic spot except fouls by A behind the basic spot.  In these plays, the fouls are by B - and in #2, it is during a loose ball play; so they are enforced from the basic (previous) spot.  See 10.4.2A and 10.4.2D

I don't care what color bean bag you throw...........

[HLinNC]

ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.

b. A legal forward pass.

c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.

Previous spot was B15, fumble at B30.  That is NOT in or behind the NZ.


ART. 3 . . . The end of the run is:

a. Where the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession.

b. Where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball

ART. 4 . . . The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2.



You might not care what color it is but you better have it down 'cause this is why we carry the thing.

[maven]

Previous spot was B15, fumble at B30.  That is NOT in or behind the NZ.

It's not? A starts at the B15, retreats to the B30 and fumbles?

[Curious]

It's not? A starts at the B15, retreats to the B30 and fumbles?

If A starts on B's 15 and ends up on B's 30, that seems like behind the line of scrimmage to me...If it were A's 15 and fumbled on A's 30, THAT would be beyond the LOS, right?

[HLinNC]

Ah crap, A's and B's and I need a friggin road map .

Play 2-  Previous spot

Had it right the first time til I edited myself. 

And now why I remember hating reading case plays and word problems in math.

A train leaves Los Angeles with a load of apples at ten o'clock.  Another train leaves Chicago with a load of oranges at nine o'clock.  How many bananas did the monkey eat?

[FBUmp]

Ump, might want to read 3.7.5 Situation B as it is right on point with this scenario.  Says nothing about becoming an illegal participation foul.

IMO, I would not call this illegal participation if he was the 11th player

3.7 says it's IP and 3.7.5 says nothing about IP.

So we are supposed to ignore 3.7?

If he's on A's side when the ball is snapped and tackles the QB for a sack, you don't have IP?

To me, there's some contradiction here as I don't see anything that says 3.7 doesn't apply to this play.

[maven]

3.7 says it's IP and 3.7.5 says nothing about IP.

So we are supposed to ignore 3.7?

If he's on A's side when the ball is snapped and tackles the QB for a sack, you don't have IP?

To me, there's some contradiction here as I don't see anything that says 3.7 doesn't apply to this play.

FBUmp, I was confused too, until I looked up the rule reference in the 3.7 COMMENT: 9-6-4c concerns the 12th man.

So, again, if the sub is the 11th player and he participates (including sacking the QB), you still have IS, but no IP. Provided that he enters prior to the snap, he simply hasn't violated any provision of 9-6-4.

If the sub is the 12th player and he participates, then you have a violation of 9-6-4c.

[FBUmp]

IF that's there reasoning, it should be spelled out better in the Case Book plays.  As it is now, there's a contradiction.

[Curious]

Ah crap, A's and B's and I need a friggin road map .
Play 2-  Previous spot
Had it right the first time til I edited myself. 

Thank God!  You guys had me thinking I was losing my mind...