Define - Last Timed Down as per 3.3.3

[Umpire-60]

I am looking for a cleared definition of the “Last Timed Down” in relation to 3.3.3?

At question is the following case (hope this makes sense):
With 0:20 seconds left 2nd quarter, A is 1st and Goal from B’s 5 and the clock starting on the ready.  The clock is wound in by R and A attempts to spike the ball but is called for a false start as the line was moving to get set at the snap.   B accepts the penalty and we are now 1st and Goal from B’s 10 with the clock reading 0:17.  The clock again is wound in by R as the previous play prior to the foul was running play dead in bounds.  A goes into the huddle (presumably thinking they spiked the ball and stopped the clock) and before the play gets off the clock expires.

Does A get an untimed down and is the quarter extended?

[AlUpstateNY]

NFHS 2-7-1 advises, "A down is action which starts with a legal snap (beginning a scrimmage down) or when a ball is kicked on a free kick down.  As a "false start" start is a dead ball foul, a down never started.  The game clock was stopped to administer the dead ball foul, and was properly restarted on the subsequent ready for play.  The game clock expired before another play was started.  The game is over because there is no time on the clock.

The "Last timed down" in your situation was the play that preceeded the false start, and unless there was a live ball foul accepted for THAT play, the game is over.

[FBUmp]

I am looking for a cleared definition of the “Last Timed Down” in relation to 3.3.3?

At question is the following case (hope this makes sense):
With 0:20 seconds left 2nd quarter, A is 1st and Goal from B’s 5 and the clock starting on the ready.  The clock is wound in by R and A attempts to spike the ball but is called for a false start as the line was moving to get set at the snap.   B accepts the penalty and we are now 1st and Goal from B’s 10 with the clock reading 0:17.  The clock again is wound in by R as the previous play prior to the foul was running play dead in bounds.  A goes into the huddle (presumably thinking they spiked the ball and stopped the clock) and before the play gets off the clock expires.

Does A get an untimed down and is the quarter extended?

No.  The foul did not happen during the last timed down of the period.  It happened before the down began.

[VALJ]

I am looking for a cleared definition of the “Last Timed Down” in relation to 3.3.3?

At question is the following case (hope this makes sense):
With 0:20 seconds left 2nd quarter, A is 1st and Goal from B’s 5 and the clock starting on the ready.  The clock is wound in by R and A attempts to spike the ball but is called for a false start as the line was moving to get set at the snap.   B accepts the penalty and we are now 1st and Goal from B’s 10 with the clock reading 0:17.  The clock again is wound in by R as the previous play prior to the foul was running play dead in bounds.  A goes into the huddle (presumably thinking they spiked the ball and stopped the clock) and before the play gets off the clock expires.

Does A get an untimed down and is the quarter extended?

Did you have a legal down when the clock was stopped for the false start penalty?

As an aside, I'd be damned sure I did some preventive officiating and "reminded" A that the clock is starting with the whistle.

[HLinNC]

NFHS really needs to insert a case play regarding a dead ball foul in this section.

 

[Umpire-60]

No, there was no down as the false start is a dead ball foul.  The clock did not start.  As we administered the false start penalty we reminded A that the clock was going to star when it is ready for play. 

[maven]

NFHS really needs to insert a case play regarding a dead ball foul in this section.

Good call.

[vplacek228@comcast.net]

Don't have my books but if memory serves (no guarantee on that) the case book did have a play similar to original post BUT the foul called was Illegal Shift not False Start.  And I'm pretty sure in the case book play the clock was to start on the snap due to the spike.  Failure to get set should be an IS foul not a FS.

[VALJ]

Since IS is a live ball foul, that would be correct. 

No, there was no down as the false start is a dead ball foul.  The clock did not start.  As we administered the false start penalty we reminded A that the clock was going to star when it is ready for play. 

Well done!

[Curious]

Don't have my books but if memory serves (no guarantee on that) the case book did have a play similar to original post BUT the foul called was Illegal Shift not False Start.  And I'm pretty sure in the case book play the clock was to start on the snap due to the spike.  Failure to get set should be an IS foul not a FS.

I think "WV" has a good point here.  If I infer correctly from the wording of the OP, a lineman was going down at the snap which, by definition, is an illegal shift - not a false start - a live ball foul.  Rule 7-1-7 does not cover this scenario.  Let the play go and the foul would require an untimed down if accepted.

If, however, this movement was considered simulating action at the snap, then a false start (dead ball foul) WAS the right call.  No untimed down.....

[ECILLJ]

I agree with WV. The play stays live for an illegal shift and the clock is stopped with the spike. The clock will start on the snap. This would be an easy mistake to make. Whatever the call is, it is important to let Team A know that the clock is going to start on the snap or my whistle. I wouldn't tell Team A that the clock will start when the ball is ready for play, that can lead to a misunderstanding.

[Curious]

I think "WV" has a good point here.  If I infer correctly from the wording of the OP, a lineman was going down at the snap which, by definition, is an illegal shift - not a false start - a live ball foul.  Rule 7-1-7 does not cover this scenario.  Let the play go and the foul would require an untimed down if accepted "and time expired".

If, however, this movement was considered simulating action at the snap, then a false start (dead ball foul) WAS the right call.  No untimed down.....

Just happened to re-read the OP and my post.  What I wanted to say, but omitted, was "and if time expired" as modified above.  Of course, since there was a spike, and if a live ball foul had actually been called, the clock would start on the snap.

[FredFan7]

NFHS 2-7-1 advises, "A down is action which starts with a legal snap (beginning a scrimmage down) or when a ball is kicked on a free kick down.  As a "false start" start is a dead ball foul, a down never started.  The game clock was stopped to administer the dead ball foul, and was properly restarted on the subsequent ready for play.  The game clock expired before another play was started.  The game is over because there is no time on the clock.

The "Last timed down" in your situation was the play that preceeded the false start, and unless there was a live ball foul accepted for THAT play, the game is over.

A great explanation.  And yes, I agree that the referee needs to inform the captains and have the wings remind the coach that the clock starts on the ready.  Nice time for a HS referee to have a mic!

[Magician]

Let's say there was a live ball foul on the down that ended at the B5, penalty enforced, and clock started.  Then there is a false start before the spike and the clock winds and expires before another snap.  There would be 1 untimed down in this case even though the last foul wasn't during the last timed down.  This is where I like the NCAA rule better and the clock has to expire during the last timed down when the foul occurs.

[Atlanta Blue]

Let's say there was a live ball foul on the down that ended at the B5, penalty enforced, and clock started.  Then there is a false start before the spike and the clock winds and expires before another snap.  There would be 1 untimed down in this case even though the last foul wasn't during the last timed down.  This is where I like the NCAA rule better and the clock has to expire during the last timed down when the foul occurs.

The LAST foul wasn't during the last timed down, but that's not the issue.  The last timed down had a penalty that was enforced, so there will be an untimed down.

So let's timeline your scenario:

0:15 - play starts, gets to the B5, foul on the play, penalty enforced, clock now at 0:05, clock on RFP
0:05 - false start, so any spike doesn't matter, the play didn't happen.  FS happened at 0:01
0:01 - RFP, clock runs out before snap

So yes, there was a penalty on the last timed down, so there will be another play.  And I'll bet MANY crews miss this!

The rule doesn't say anything about the last foul, it only talks of the last timed down.
 

[waltjp]

Just happened to re-read the OP and my post.  What I wanted to say, but omitted, was "and if time expired" as modified above.  Of course, since there was a spike, and if a live ball foul had actually been called, the clock would start on the snap.

Just to be clear,  you're not inferring that time had to expire during the down in which a penalty was accepted, are you?