Questions from the Texas Private Schools

[dcs07]

TxMike found my little corner of the internet over at lscsn.com where we discuss private school sports in Texas and I've been reading his little corner of the internet over here for a while so I figured I'd invade a bit. I'm not an official so I don't usually have anything to add (hence this is post #1 for me) but I do try to learn as much as I can so that I don't add to the problem of dumb people on the sidelines for you all to put up with and maybe can teach those that I know not to be such idiots all the time.

Anyway here are a couple videos from this weekend. In the first a FG is blocked and then downed by Team A at its 2. The ball is then next put in play at the 2. The question is shouldn't it have come to the previous line of scrimmage (21 in this case)?
Link

In the second video, the first and third plays are one that I thought were potential false starts and the second is a potential ineligible downfield. Yes, I support the team in black and there are probably plays that could have been posted that should have been penalties against us. Admittedly, I was less interested in finding those
Link

Thanks for the time and energy you all put into this site for people (officials and non-officials) to learn.

[CenTexTM]

Thanks for posting and linking the videos.  I'm guessing you'll get lots of (more-seasoned) responses, but here are my takes as someone who just completed their third season.  All of these assume NCAA rules as applied in Texas HS.

For the FG: the umpire is indicating that the kick was tipped, but a blocked scrimmage kick that's blocked within 3 yards of the NZ is considered to be untouched by B, so the proper spot would be the B21, not where it was downed.

For the three plays: the first play is close, but the back's action is not a jerky, sudden movement designed to simulate the start of the play, and since he doesn't move his feet it's hard to really call illegal motion either.  I have nothing on that play, but would probably try to talk to the player or the coach as I agree it is close.  On the second play, I definitely have A44 covered up and then downfield.  On the third play, I don't see a false start by the back at all (I assume you're referring to the back closest to the press box sideline?).  I watched several times, and if you have to do that to decide if there's a foul, it's probably best not to call one.

[TXMike]

FG video - Yep, should be at the B21.  Also, and mechanically speaking, when the FG has obviously failed like this, the B and L need to evacuate the goal posts and get to a poition to rule on other things that can happen.  What if someone from Team B comes down and pulls a Leon Lett?  We need someone at the GL, the end line is no longer an issue.

Others  :
1 - May not be a false start but is illegal motion
2 - If you mean the TE (44), we judge ineligible downfield by where the the player is at the moment the pass is released.  It appears he is no more than 3 yards downfield at that moment so no foul
3 - Looks like back is going laterally so that will likely not be judged a foul

[maven]

Regarding the possible FS/IM: I seem to recall Sumstine has a play like this in the 2012 Aloha Clinic videos. IIRC, his philosophy is that, if a back has forgotten the snap count and moves or leans forward in obvious anticipation of the play, then we should shut it down as a FS rather than flag IM.

Sorry, I don't have time just now to hunt up the link.

[BankerRef]

To me the lean is clear by the back attempting to beat the snap count.  Make this a false start.

At first glance it appears the TE is covered and is going downfield as if running a route but I think this is a case of hesitation by the QB on a quick timing route and the TE expected the ball to be out already.  With that said, this is a situation where we (my crew) do not give much leeway at all on the 3 yards since he is inelligible by position and not number.  If he is close and especially if the pass is thrown in the same third of the field we tend to make him downfield.

Right Guard might be a little quick on the last one but I probably let that go.

I could give the benefit of the doubt either way on the potential false starts and the covered TE downfield but the spot after FG should be easy an get by a playoff caliber crew.

[maven]

Regarding the possible FS/IM: I seem to recall Sumstine has a play like this in the 2012 Aloha Clinic videos. IIRC, his philosophy is that, if a back has forgotten the snap count and moves or leans forward in obvious anticipation of the play, then we should shut it down as a FS rather than flag IM.

Here's the LOS video:

http://youtu.be/GPYRI2p3rcI

Play #3 involves a back moving forward before the snap. In the clinic play, the movement is a bit more vigorous than in the OP, but I think the rationale would be the same.

[TXMike]

At first glance it appears the TE is covered and is going downfield as if running a route but I think this is a case of hesitation by the QB on a quick timing route and the TE expected the ball to be out already.  With that said, this is a situation where we (my crew) do not give much leeway at all on the 3 yards since he is inelligible by position and not number.  If he is close and especially if the pass is thrown in the same third of the field we tend to make him downfield.

Where was the TE at the moment the pass was released?

[BankerRef]

Where was the TE at the moment the pass was released?

I would say 3 yards.  But since we cannot sit and parse the video frame by frame while we are on the field my point is that with it being close I wouldn't have a problem if the crew had a flag.  I also don't have a problem that they don't.  Just pointing out our crew philosophy that a covered receiver does not get the benefit of the doubt on close the same way a 50-79 lineman does.

[TXMike]

My point is that too many guys rule on this by looking where players are well after the ball has gone downfield.  That is too late to be making this call. The only one in any kind of position to rule on this is likely the U as the flanks probably don't know when the ball was released. They just know there was a pass into their area and they see an ineligible there so they flag.  That may be a mistake.

[BankerRef]

Good point on the timing.

[TxSkyBolt]

With respect to the shift on the swinging gate FG.  I couldn't see the numbers or if there were numbering exceptions, but since the snapper had his hands on the ball, they are locked and cannot shift to an end position...do I have this correct?

[BankerRef]

With respect to the shift on the swinging gate FG.  I couldn't see the numbers or if there were numbering exceptions, but since the snapper had his hands on the ball, they are locked and cannot shift to an end position...do I have this correct?

Correct.  It looks like the player that becomes the end is 72 so he was not an original numbering exception before the shift and therefore the formation is legal in this case.

[CenTexZebra]

That field on the field goal attempt, sure looks familiar!!!!!

[tx29]

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[dcs07]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I knew each of the 3 plays in the 2nd video were very close and that's why I brought them to you I think that those 3 plays being the ones I pulled shows that the crew did a very good job on Saturday. Its hard to see the ball on the 3rd play very well and it could have been a trick of the the lineman not all firing at the same time, but live it really looked like the back left early. Though as I said I'm biased.

I think on the whole the crew on Friday in Brownwood did well except for that one big play and it turned out not to alter the outcome of the game. I'll try to bring some more interesting ones for you as I find them.

[tx29]

TSB, the linemen are restricted only after center addresses the ball and they place hand on the ground or below knees.  Shifting after this would be a foul.

[TxSkyBolt]

Yes I understand when they can shift, was just addressing the fact that if they shift after the center has assumed his position ( as he did here by placing a hand on the ball) numbering exceptions cannot end up on the end of the line.


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