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Football Officiating => General Discussion => Topic started by: tothemax96 on January 02, 2015, 10:30:52 PM
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Do you think we will ever get to a point where the coaches will get off our butts? Why has that become such a big part of the game. It has Nothing to do with their title of Coach. Is it something they practice, like special teams?? Most of the time, the coach yelling doesn't even know the rule he is complaining about. I have never seen an official stop and change his call because a coach yelled at him. I don't yell at him to stop running that Dive play that hasn't worked all night. I wish the rules committee would put more restrictions on the coaches conduct toward officials. Thanks, What Do You Think.......?
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The simple answer is ...we have the rules now, they are just not used. How long did we have the clear sideline rule but never had clear sidelines till we started enforcing them.
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Yeah Mike, I know the rule is there. But who is going to be the first one to flag a coach. Then will the chapter back him up of just say, you have to have tough skin. Tough skin is one thing but taking abuse gets old really fast. TASO or UIL Needs to step in and change the approach the coaches are taking toward officials. We talk about retaining officials, but who wants to take such abuse when this is suppose to be fun. I am trying to get different officials opinions of this subject.
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What would you have TASO or UIL do? They can't do anything until you have done something first. Did you flag? Did you do an incident report? Have you scratched any coaches?
There have been only a few coaches who I have thought were truly abusive. Don't have to worry about them any longer as I have scratched them. There are plenty of coaches out there who are not abusive. Just work for them.
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This is not a one size fits all topic. Every official's tolerance level is different. Yes, there are rules we use as guidelines but in the end it is up to the individual to draw his line. I know principals of officiating preach for consistency but the human element isn't easily removed.
I have worked on chain crews at the NCAA 1AA (FCS) level so I have heard coaches at that level. There are things said and done there that wouldn't fly in a high school game but it is accepted because college officials are expected to live with it.
Granted, there are some universal items that should earn a flag every time they occur.
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What would you have TASO or UIL do? They can't do anything until you have done something first. Did you flag? Did you do an incident report? Have you scratched any coaches?
There have been only a few coaches who I have thought were truly abusive. Don't have to worry about them any longer as I have scratched them. There are plenty of coaches out there who are not abusive. Just work for them.
Interacting with coaches, over matters at dispute, are simply part of the environment we choose. How we respond to such incidents is a decision we (alone) get to make. I would suggest we all keep in mind coaches are usually very much invested in the game, are often under considerable pressure, of various kinds, some of which is purely self generated and is in the midst of "herding cats" to some degree.
Considering all that, coaches are still adults, and as such are bound by rules of civility and decorum, which are very clearly spelled out in the football rule books (at all levels). I've found it advisable, "To be nice (as long as possible), until it's time NOT to be nice" which is purely a judgment call.
We all understand and accept it is our responsibility to ALWAYS be respectful and to listen patiently to questions, or objections, that are REASONABLY presented, provide clarifying information calmly and factually and explain rulings. Sarcasm is not a helpful tool rendered in either direction, and the objective is to clarify whatever the dispute may be about, without lowering the discussion to personal dispute.
Clearly understanding the specific rule requirements for behavior during such exchanges, is extremely important regarding any necessary application of consequences regarding non-compliance. When necessary, consequences should be applied calmly and efficiently, totally independent of what the perceptions of others might be, based SPECIFICALLY on violations of specific EXISTING rules.
Where the line is drawn, to determine whether consequences are appropriate, is ENTIRELY within the judgment of the official applying them, and how those consequences are introduced will have a significant bearing on whether they successfully lower the temperature and return the discussion to the levels of calmness and civility intended.
The key is to NEVER, EVER allow yourself to sink to whatever of inappropriate behavior you are confronting.
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I've officiated various levels of different sports for the past 20+ years. It is usually my problem when I allow MY emotions to get involved with the conversation. If I can keep my emotions out of it, I can properly flag coaches and players alike. If we keep our emotions in check, we can properly define (in our own minds) when a player or coach crosses the line.
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One of the things I tell newer officials is to remember that it is not them personally who is being yelled at, it is the uniform. Most of the time the coaches do not know anything about us as persons. They may not know we are wonderful, fathers, grandfathers, vets, benevolent citizens, etc. They know the black and white stripes made a call they did not agree with and that is what they are "attacking" (the black and white stripes).
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I don't mind coaches "getting on us" about calls. What I do mind is the over the top gestures and screaming you see at D1. It's gotten to that point because we've allowed it to get to that point (with the guiding hand of the supervisors). The only way we will get it under control is if the D1 guys start hitting coaches with UNS fouls and the supervisor supporting it!
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In the off-season last year, I thought I saw an NCAA video for what was the upcoming 2014 season (that just ended). Among the topics was a POE regarding these screaming coaches going nuts. and the NCAA wanted to settle them down. Based on what I saw this year, I did not see where it really made much of a difference.
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I think that video only addressed coaches leaving the team area to throw their temper tantrum. If he's still in his box and whatever he says doesn't cross the line I don't think you can do anything.
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I think that video only addressed coaches leaving the team area to throw their temper tantrum. If he's still in his box and whatever he says doesn't cross the line I don't think you can do anything.
There are any number of understandable reasons a coach can lose his poise, but NEVER AN EXCUSE for doing so.
Such behavior should be corrected, as subetly and quickly as possible. Hopefully a "look" (like the one your mother, and the Coach's mother, used) will bring the offending coach back to an adult and civil level. Failing that, a quick and gentle reminder of who we both are and where we are will accomplish the task.
Ignoring INITIAL minor infractions may often allow the coach to realize his own error and make corrections, but ignoring repeated instances, or major abuses, will likely ony serve to encourage further inappropriate behavior, which like any cancer, can spread to cause serious problems, and REQUIRE progressively harsher, and more hurtful consequences.
These situations can easily turn into the basic "Fix it now, or continue dealing with it later" situations.
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I've officiated various levels of different sports for the past 20+ years. It is usually my problem when I allow MY emotions to get involved with the conversation. If I can keep my emotions out of it, I can properly flag coaches and players alike. If we keep our emotions in check, we can properly define (in our own minds) when a player or coach crosses the line.
One of the things I tell newer officials is to remember that it is not them personally who is being yelled at, it is the uniform.
Agree 100% with both of the above.
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I can't find it at the moment, but I believe there is a story over in the War Stories forum about a flag that the crowd disagreed with and the coach calls the white hat over... and proceeds to "yell" at him about how appropriate and correct the call was, but he needs to "show the crowd" that he's arguing and "standing up" for his players.
I think this is part of the problem -- screaming at the officials is part of the coach's job description. It's part of the theater and entertainment of the game, and it will be very hard to get rid of.
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20 some odd years ago, I had a veteran white hat who told coaches in the pregame he would talk with them only on the sideline with R facing the field and the coach must keep,his hands in his pockets or on his hips. Any deviation and the conference was over and a timeout charged.
Coach facing the stands kept them from cursing(lip reader) and the hand in the pocket kept them from acting a fool. Worked pretty well.
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I can't find it at the moment, but I believe there is a story over in the War Stories forum about a flag that the crowd disagreed with and the coach calls the white hat over... and proceeds to "yell" at him about how appropriate and correct the call was, but he needs to "show the crowd" that he's arguing and "standing up" for his players.
I think this is part of the problem -- screaming at the officials is part of the coach's job description. It's part of the theater and entertainment of the game, and it will be very hard to get rid of.
That was my game. The coach didn't raise his voice. He just wanted to make a point with the fans. I was okay with what he did because he was respectful about it. Also, I have worked his games before and he never sends it over the top when he is unhappy with us. He knew that it was not any call we made that cause the loss but the fact that his kids were outplayed on the field. Some of our other coaches would get a much shorter leash.
Not trying to make any excuses but coaches sometimes are in really bad situations with the schools and the parents. There is a lot of pressure. I don't mind the coach disputing a call as long as he is not making it personal or accusing us of some type of cheating. I give him a chance to vent within reason. If he needs an explanation I give it to him. If that doesn't satisfy him and he doesn't want to move on I will state "Okay Coach I've heard you, let's move on." Most coaches will stop at this point. Assistants get a much shorter leash than head coach. If an assistant won't continues, I will ask the head coach to handle it first. If he can't or won't. Of course I work as an umpire so I don't have to have the coach chirping in my ear all night. sNiCkErS
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Assistants get a much shorter leash than head coach. If an assistant won't continues, I will ask the head coach to handle it first.
Oh, yeah. To borrow a metaphor, I'll talk to the organ grinder. He needs to keep the (figurative) monkeys under control.
If he can't or won't. Of course I work as an umpire so I don't have to have the coach chirping in my ear all night. sNiCkErS
I'm finding that I like working B more and more as I continue to work. This is just one of the reasons.
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At preseason meetings with coaches I've said : "I don't intend this to be a slur , but we try to treat screaming coaches like barking dogs. If a dog is constantly barking (coach constantly screaming) we tend not to pay attention to them. If they tend to get on our nerves, we put them in their dog house ( ^flag). If the dog only barks when there's something to really bark about...a villain coming, a fire, a flood, etc ( a questionable rule interp,etc), we pay attention. Guys, what type of dog/coach do you want us to perceive you to be ????"
Some coaches ;D, some coaches >:(; some coaches just continue sleeping......but they all get the message ; Be reasonable and we will reason with them.
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We talk about retaining officials, but who wants to take such abuse when this is suppose to be fun.
Who told you this was supposed to be fun?
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Who told you this was supposed to be fun?
Just about everybody.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Inside The Stripes, I'm not directing this at you personally.
If one is not having fun doing this, they should turn in their stripes. I've said from the beginning that if I'm not having enough fun to justify all the time away from my family - much less the time running around on the field, getting grief from coaches and fans, and attending meetings, plus the cost of the dues, equipment, wear and tear on my car and my body, and the like - I need to give this up.
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:thumbup
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My crew, as we break for the 1st half kick , say see what you call and call what you see, and have fun.
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My crew, as we break for the 1st half kick , say see what you call and call what you see, and have fun.
Hey, I say just about that too when I wear the white hat! "See everything you call. Don't call everything you see. Hustle, but don't hurry. And have some fun!"
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Inside The Stripes, I'm not directing this at you personally.
If one is not having fun doing this, they should turn in their stripes. I've said from the beginning that if I'm not having enough fun to justify all the time away from my family - much less the time running around on the field, getting grief from coaches and fans, and attending meetings, plus the cost of the dues, equipment, wear and tear on my car and my body, and the like - I need to give this up.
This is a very well-articulated way of saying it. I'm a young guy and so far I enjoy what I do. The moment I don't, I won't anymore. Hopefully that won't be for a long time. :thumbup :thumbup :thumbup
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Without screaming coaches my war stories would not be as much fun or interesting. LOL
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ALUpstateNY Well said Sir.
Thanks to all for commenting.
I know there are many ways to handle a coach who goes over board. I work the wings so I have done it many times. I just think it doesn't need to be such a big part of the game. It happens at all levels, 7th grade thru Varsity. One official can't stop it. One Chapter can't stop it. It has to be a major emphasis from the top.
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Do you think we will ever get to a point where the coaches will get off our butts?
Nope.
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One of the things I tell newer officials is to remember that it is not them personally who is being yelled at, it is the uniform.
This is true and as long as they keep yelling at the uniform, they're going to get a lot of rope. Unfortunately sometimes the coaches want to go after the person in the uniform and then we need to be the bad guys in taking care of business.
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My rule of thumb for determining when they're talking to the stripes versus when they're talking to me personally is that I'm listening for the word "you" followed by some sort of descriptive adjective. At that point, I'll usually say to the coach "I'm sorry, coach - what was that?"
If he decides to repeat the same descriptive adjective... well... ^flag
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I think the best way to handle this situation is a pregame meeting with the white hat and coaches of both teams. Speech could go something like this:
"Alright gentlemen. During the course of the game, it is most likely inevitable that you will become unhappy or disagree with a call my crew makes. This is fine. You have the right to be upset or disagree. What you do not have the right to do is berate and personally attack myself or anyone on my crew. If you want to have a calm, rational discussion about why we made the decision we did, I and my crew are happy to oblige you time permitted.
If you, your coaching staff, or players resort to vulgar language or personal attacks here is what will happen. I will give you one warning and one only. 2nd offense is a UNS. 3rd offense is a UNS and the offending party will be ejected from the game. Are we clear? Do you have any questions? None? OK, let's have a great game."
Having given this speech, I think it's important to follow through in a few ways. One, you need to make sure your crew is instructed to never escalate the verbal confrontation. Two, If someone begins to question a call or the coach requests an explanation, make sure 2 or more of you are there to hear it. This allows for corroboration on the verbal abuse should it occur. Third, document what was said as best you can remember it for review by the supervisory. If you can produce evidence as to what was said, and this evidence is agreed to be vulgar in nature, you should never have a problem with your chapter backing you up.
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"Forewarned is forearmed" is usually sound advice, for those willing to accept it.
I've had reasonably good success simply adding to my explanation to the Head Coach before the game that, "I'll address any and all questions from your sideline about any issues of concern, from only you (then pause before adding) as long as you raise those questions or concerns, civily, calmly and respectfully".
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I agree that we need to mention our expectations in the pre-game, but I am not in favor of a long pre-game speech that borders on "preaching". The coaches are adults and many of them go about their business in a professional manner, they know what is expected and they also know when they have crossed the line with us, regardless if we've given them a pre-game reminder.
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I agree that we need to mention our expectations in the pre-game, but I am not in favor of a long pre-game speech that borders on "preaching". The coaches are adults and many of them go about their business in a professional manner, they know what is expected and they also know when they have crossed the line with us, regardless if we've given them a pre-game reminder.
tiphat:
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I agree that we need to mention our expectations in the pre-game, but I am not in favor of a long pre-game speech that borders on "preaching". The coaches are adults and many of them go about their business in a professional manner, they know what is expected and they also know when they have crossed the line with us, regardless if we've given them a pre-game reminder.
:thumbup
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@EC: What I wrote was an example of something you may say. Feel free to phrase it however you want. The purpose is to show, and this is basic human psychology, that by setting clear expectations and subsequent consequences for violating those expectations, you will begin to see more of the behavior you desire. What we desire is for coaches and officials to not be at each others' throats and treat each other with respect. Try it with your kids (if you have them) sometime; it works very well.
The problem with not setting clear expectations is this will always be a judgement call of a person's attitude by any official who decides to throw or swallow the flag. If you are not clear about when and under what circumstances you make the call, you open yourself up to people questioning your decision. I know this is not news that officials' decisions are called into question, but this particular situation is unique in that you are judging a person's attitude and behavior not a player's on field play. For me, I want to make dang sure I'm calling this in a way that is unimpeachable.
In defense of my example, I do not consider it to be a long speech. I am pretty sure I could rattle off what I wrote verbatim in about 30 seconds. I think all involved should be able to sacrifice this amount of time for the subject of sportsmanship. I also do not consider it preaching. I am not telling these coaches to take a different moral position or else. I am simply stating what behavior I will reward and what behavior I will punish.
You mention that most of the coaches you work with act in a professional and respectful manner. That's great. You may not need this strategy, but for those who do experience this or this is the coach culture in their league, this is a tactic that could be tried. Obviously, the OP has had problems with this or he would not have started this thread. I am offering a suggestion on how to change the behavior they are seeing as problematic.
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Inside The Stripes, I'm not directing this at you personally.
If one is not having fun doing this, they should turn in their stripes. I've said from the beginning that if I'm not having enough fun to justify all the time away from my family - much less the time running around on the field, getting grief from coaches and fans, and attending meetings, plus the cost of the dues, equipment, wear and tear on my car and my body, and the like - I need to give this up.
I guess I should explain my glib comment.
I like having fun as much as the next guy, but I don't officiate for "fun". I officiate for the satisfaction that comes with the knowledge that I've prepared as well as possible, been in the best position possible, and exhibited great judgement. I officiate for the constant challenge and the elusiveness of the perfect game. Plus, I love the climb...
Like you, when I stop deriving satisfaction from this endeavor, I will "hang them up".
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I totally get it, and I knew what you meant even at the time. I just wanted to say what I said for the "greater good" for everyone. There is no greater satisfaction than a well-officiated game, and when a well-officiated game matches up with a well-played game, it's almost magical to me. I'm right there with you.
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"YE NEED TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH TROLLS" - author anonymous
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"ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE"
- Sign that should be above the door out of the official's locker room. :)
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"ABANDON ALL HOPE, YE WHO ENTER HERE"
- Sign that should be above the door out of the official's locker room. :)
. You'all got a locker room. Damn
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. You'all got a locker room. DARN
LOL
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Isn't "screaming coaches" a bit redundant? yEs:
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Also an oxymoron. If they are screaming in the sense we are referring to it here then they are not coaching.
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Not to hijack the thread, as my post is basketball, but does deal with a screaming coach. In 13 years of officiating basketball I had never T'd a coach. Well, Tuesday I got my first. Not even 2 minutes into the game the coach saw what he thought was a player with the ball step out of bounds. I didn't see it that we and he started screaming. It continued for two possessions. I finally decided I was not going to listen to that any longer. After I T'd him his comment was, " I was just trying to ask a question." Really? All the screaming. I never once heard a question, hence the reason I never said a word. Once the question was asked, I politely told him that from my view the player did not touch the line. The funny thing is, the opposing coach, who is usually one that likes to chirp, never said a word the whole game. I guess he saw how fast I popped the other coach he wasn't going to risk anything. The game continued with both coaches simply focusing on coaching and not being concerned about the officials. It's amazing how much better the game is played when the coaches are just coaching. If only I would have known those past 13 years how good it would feel to T one up. ;D