RefStripes.com
Football Officiating => Texas Topics => Topic started by: TexDoc on December 14, 2015, 09:07:54 AM
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6AD1 - FTW
6AD2 - TYL
5AD1 - AUS
5AD2 -
4AD1 -
4AD2 - TYL
3AD1 - SAT
3AD2 -
2AD1 - FTW
2AD2 -
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Per Zebra Ware Tyler has 3 games, 3A, 4A & 6A. I have heard rumors that the same crew will be working multiple games for both Tyler and FW. You would hope some of these local boards would not let this happen.
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Latest intel:
6AD1 - FTW
6AD2 - TYL
5AD1 - AUS
5AD2 - HOU
4AD1 - HOU
4AD2 - TYL
3AD1 - SAT
3AD2 - TYL
2AD1 - FTW
2AD2 -
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I have heard rumors that the same crew will be working multiple games for both Tyler and FW. You would hope some of these local boards would not let this happen.
If a crew gets requested for multiple games that aren't on the same day what reason do you have to tell the schools they can't get who they want?
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Per Zebra Ware Tyler has 3 games, 3A, 4A & 6A. I have heard rumors that the same crew will be working multiple games for both Tyler and FW. You would hope some of these local boards would not let this happen.
have to love the good old boy system. people wonder why chapters can't keep officials.
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If a crew gets requested for multiple games that aren't on the same day what reason do you have to tell the schools they can't get who they want?
It's the system we have, which stinks. To answer your question, because coaches should not be able to request a specific crew. deadhorse: deadhorse: deadhorse:
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All other sports are selected on a chapter basis by the UIL and not the coaches. This "good ole boy system" stinks. This needs to be changed!!
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All other sports are selected on a chapter basis by the UIL and not the coaches. This "good ole boy system" stinks. This needs to be changed!!
So you are going to trade one "good ole boy system" for another?
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So you are going to trade one "good ole boy system" for another?
That's the problem! Any way it is done, someone will not be happy.
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That's the problem! Any way it is done, someone will not be happy.
I agree, everyone will never be happy. But, you'd have to think there was a way to get some more folks some state experience that are deserving. But, like you said UIL takes over and people will still be unhappy.
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With there being 10 games played this upcoming weekend that means there will be at least 50 positions working but probably more like 56 assuming three games are 7-man. I say positions and not officials because we also know there are several that will be double dipping so I will work off the assumption there are approximately 45 individual officials working this upcoming weekend. I’d be interested to know out of 45 working how many worked last year versus how many are new working this year. It would be a nice thing to see it more spread out and I’m sure the same annual arguments will start up again.
Congrats to ANYONE who does have the privilege of working this upcoming a weekend. Be fair and do a great job. Please just remember to take a second or third look when the chain stretches and make sure it is not past the ball before you signal first down….LOL.
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Wow! Dallas didn't get 1?
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Please just remember to take a second or third look when the chain stretches and make sure it is not past the ball before you signal first down…
TxPanhandle.....That's cold.
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Wow! Dallas didn't get 1?
Nope, Not 1. hEaDbAnG pi1eOn
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Wow! Dallas didn't get 1?
Sub-par chapter
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Sub-par chapter
:sTiR: ^flag
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:sTiR: ^flag
Dallas has lived off of it's rep for a long time. They have good crews, but even those crews have a superiority complex. And this is coming from someone who is a part of the chapter. It's easy to be mad at the comment, but if he were lying our numbers in the playoffs wouldn't be what they are.
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if he were lying our numbers in the playoffs wouldn't be what they are.
On the same page GB, but getting games is not a true reflection of how good the chapter is, I mean Tyler chapter got 3
All Texas chapters > Tyler chapter
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Latest intel:
6AD1 - FTW
6AD2 - TYL
5AD1 - AUS
5AD2 - HOU
4AD1 - HOU
4AD2 - TYL
3AD1 - SAT
3AD2 - TYL
2AD1 - FTW
2AD2 -
ETX got the 2AD2 game
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Dallas has lived off of it's rep for a long time. They have good crews, but even those crews have a superiority complex. And this is coming from someone who is a part of the chapter. It's easy to be mad at the comment, but if he were lying our numbers in the playoffs wouldn't be what they are.
Lot more complicated than just a Chapter "is not good". Dallas, to their credit, apparently has a crew formation policy that prevents any all D-1 crews. This is probably good for the long term health of the Chapter has "lower" classification officials get experience sooner than they might otherwise. But many playoff games come in with a caveat to have an all D-1 crew. So what do they do, break up an existing crew to make an artificial all D1 crew?
Also could be a factor of the schools who are playing. "Their" schools play in a Champ game and they are out of luck. Just ask Houston how that goes.
Maybe it is how they market themselves for the playoffs.
Are there officials "better" than the ones who will work these last 10 games? ABSOLUTELY! Even inside the Chapters those officials are coming from there are "better" officials in many cases. Are there going to be mistakes made? ABSOLUTELY I trust we are all in agreement that we hope any mistakes made are the ones that are typically only noticed by guys like us and definitely not ones that affect the outcome.
It is a mistake for anyone to assume Chapters and officials get games because "they are better". It is far more complicated than that simple (and incorrect) answer.
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Mike,
You're right that there are "better" officials than those working this weekend, but we have so many officials that think they are "the best" BECAUSE they are working this round or that only the best officials work in this round.
You're even more spot on with your assessment that Dallas doesn't do a good enough job of marketing itself. In the past, their marketing has been simply, "we're Dallas, we've got history, we have put out good officials in the past." That simply won't cut it anymore. Hopefully future leadership will fix this.
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You're even more spot on with your assessment that Dallas doesn't do a good enough job of marketing itself. In the past, their marketing has been simply, "we're Dallas, we've got history, we have put out good officials in the past." That simply won't cut it anymore. Hopefully future leadership will fix this.
Plug any chapter in place of Dallas and it should resonate with others as well.
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One Tyler crew who has two games this weekend also had two last year.
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The FTW games are both being covered by one crew. To say this caused a stir in our chapter would be a bit of understatement. I think there has to be a better way than what we do for crew selection but I hesitate to start charging at people with pitchforks because I don't have a solution. I would be like to hear real, thought out ideas that y'all might have for crew assignments.
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One Tyler crew who has two games this weekend also had two last year.
Shocker
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The FTW games are both being covered by one crew. To say this caused a stir in our chapter would be a bit of understatement. I think there has to be a better way than what we do for crew selection but I hesitate to start charging at people with pitchforks because I don't have a solution. I would be like to hear real, thought out ideas that y'all might have for crew assignments.
They must have been picked I can't imagine any Chapter in the State having such lack of confidence in their crews that they would assume they only had 1 capable of working these games And if they are picked....well you now the rest
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The FTW games are both being covered by one crew. To say this caused a stir in our chapter would be a bit of understatement. I think there has to be a better way than what we do for crew selection but I hesitate to start charging at people with pitchforks because I don't have a solution. I would be like to hear real, thought out ideas that y'all might have for crew assignments.
I am reading to start charging with pitchforks at some of our leadership this year. Not over the crew selected for the our chapter's state game, but the overall assignment of our playoffs. With that said I don't have a solution either and so I am with you in hesitating to assault someone. :)
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Speaking as a relative 'outsider' being that I've just finished my first year in Texas, it seems like until you get a unified message from all TASO Chapters, then the situation with coaches picking and related complaints about playoff assignments/picks will never change.
It seems like one chapter might assign all games, while another allows a coach to pick varsity while assigning sub-varsity, while another chapter will let coaches abuse to the Nth degree just to get a chance to work their games, and then get burned come playoff time.
Until various chapters stop fighting each other for game assignments, the coaches will keep running the hen house. The "us vs. them" should never be DAL vs. FTW or HOU vs. SAT.
Rather if an "us vs. them" must exist, it should be:
All Officials protecting the integrity of the game
vs.
Coaches and others who seek to get an unfair advantage (i.e. picking a "favorable" crew, "working" a crew to get calls, etc)
Will anyone have the stomach to champion such sweeping change? Who knows...a forum discussion is likely not the place to change the hearts and minds, but maybe it will start the conversation.
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Speaking as a relative 'outsider' being that I've just finished my first year in Texas, it seems like until you get a unified message from all TASO Chapters, then the situation with coaches picking and related complaints about playoff assignments/picks will never change.
It seems like one chapter might assign all games, while another allows a coach to pick varsity while assigning sub-varsity, while another chapter will let coaches abuse to the Nth degree just to get a chance to work their games, and then get burned come playoff time.
Until various chapters stop fighting each other for game assignments, the coaches will keep running the hen house. The "us vs. them" should never be DAL vs. FTW or HOU vs. SAT.
Rather if an "us vs. them" must exist, it should be:
All Officials protecting the integrity of the game
vs.
Coaches and others who seek to get an unfair advantage (i.e. picking a "favorable" crew, "working" a crew to get calls, etc)
Will anyone have the stomach to champion such sweeping change? Who knows...a forum discussion is likely not the place to change the hearts and minds, but maybe it will start the conversation.
tiphat:
Well said sir. Well said.
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Shocker
That Ruth fellow must be an exceptional official. Haha JK guys JK
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As a side note related to those seeking "alternative solutions", I can only speak from other methods that I have seen (namely Michigan).
I believe all games were assigned by chapter secretaries and coaches submitted ratings on officials on a 1 to 5 scale. Those ratings were anonymous and were aggregated by the state to rank officials. Officials were not eligilbe for playoff assignments until they had a minimum number of varsity game ratings (approx 2-3 years). The state association assigned playoff games based on those ratings on the best average rating during a 3-year rolling period. There was also a restriction that any given official/crew could only work a Championship game once every 3 years.
I cant speak to the rationale behind all of those decisions or the way the system was set up, but it seemed to be a system that most could support and made logical sense while remaining fair. The impression that I was left with at the beginning of my officiating career was that if you wanted to work playoff games and especially championship games, that you must consistently to work hard each year at refining your craft, and that has shaped the way I have approached the avocation since.
As many have said, there will always be someone who:
- complains about whatever system is used
- doesnt get playoff games and cries "politics"
- guys with 1 year of experience, 20 times
Nothing can be done about those that put forth minimal effort, but in my (albeit limited) experience, this category of official seem to be a small minority.
The vast majority of people somewhere between 5 and 25 years of experience tend to be those who work hard and truly love officiating.
Doesnt it make sense to try to objectively measure officials and reward as many of those officials as possible? I think so.
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Still amuses me that this time a year, every year, grown men turn into gossipy middle school girls. Guaranteed several officials on here and even more that aren't on refstripes have spent hours this week calling their buddies and whining like little girls about how the system is unfair and they're better then all those crews working.
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Hefnerjm I'll submit that the rankings of coaches are a poor way to select playoff officials.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It may be THE poorest way. If it was good wouldn't NCAA and NFL be using it.
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Still amuses me that this time a year, every year, grown men turn into gossipy middle school girls. Guaranteed several officials on here and even more that aren't on refstripes have spent hours this week calling their buddies and whining like little girls about how the system is unfair and they're better then all those crews working.
What's even crazier is how these same officials ABSOLUTELY LOSE THEIR MINDS when assignments within the chapter come out and not only whine about how unfair the system is, but demean and belittle the people that are working and immediately suggest that they must be soliciting because "there is now way they are good enough to work that game." Unbelieveable...
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Hefnerjm I'll submit that the rankings of coaches are a poor way to select playoff officials.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
How exactly is going off of coach rankings a poor way to select playoff officials, butttttt allowing coaches to pick crews works??? I mean let's be honest, coaches run everything in football in this state.
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What's even crazier is how these same officials ABSOLUTELY LOSE THEIR MINDS when assignments within the chapter come out and not only whine about how unfair the system is, but demean and belittle the people that are working and immediately suggest that they must be soliciting because "there is now way they are good enough to work that game." Unbelieveable...
I resemble this remark at times.
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Hefnerjm I'll submit that the rankings of coaches are a poor way to select playoff officials.
I am not saying it is the best or most ideal method...I am simply saying that 1) that is what I have seen work, and 2) in theory, ratings aggregated across years should be relatively objective. (i.e. coaches should despise all officials equally).
It may be THE poorest way. If it was good wouldn't NCAA and NFL be using it.
Again, not saying it is a good way...but rather offering a possible solution to those bemoaning the system without any suggestions for improvement.
Two questions Mike:
1) how does the NCAA and NFL do it? (Im guessing it isnt coaches picks). I believe the NFL uses supervisors reviewing and "grading" officials...so, effectively it is a ratings system...just where the ratings are provided by supervisors rather than coaches.
and 2) if those organizations do something and UIL/TASO doesnt do those things, what is the rationale for why we dont adopt those best practices? (i.e. if it isnt cost effective to have supervisors review the film for all officials, then wouldnt coaches be the next most informed?).
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If it was good wouldn't NCAA and NFL be using it.
You could apply this to the current system now. Of course inertia is a helluva thing and this system has had decades of inertia.
With how much Texas HS football resembles college football in several ways and the desire to continue emulating college football, I am surprised in a way that a conference commissioner type system hasn't been implemented. Granted there are A LOT more high schools in Texas than universities in a typical conference but I could see something similar being developed. The commissioner system seems to work in other states.
One of two things will cause this system to change:
1) An act of the Texas state legislature or;
2) Enough coaches being unhappy with the current system due to enough egregious issues (perceived or otherwise) that they demand a change.
Another thing to think about: There is already a lot of bad blood between TASO and the UIL over the past decade or so. We already see how little regard there is towards sports officials in general, especially in Texas. Fact is more than a few outright hate us and think we're all incompetent oafs. Officials demanding less control over football from the coaches is only going to widen that chasm.
Getting all of the big chapters in line to demand a change is a fruitless endeavor also. In just Houston alone wanting to make a change gets rumbled about from time to time but those with a vested interest work to ensure the system stays the way it is. And I guarantee you that once those folks are no longer around, those that replace them will do the same because "it is their turn."
In short, I think there's a better chance of banning guns in Texas than there is enacting a meaningful change to the way football is played.
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In short, I think there's a better chance of banning guns in Texas than there is enacting a meaningful change to the way football is played.
Well...this is quite the killjoy for an optimistic young official with dreams of making a positive difference.
hEaDbAnG
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The solutions to this problem is obvious. Take the coaches selecting officials out of the mix. One can assume the coaches want a neutral crew. Well, when they ask for a crew by name its no longer a neutral crew. Trouble is that most coaches really want a crew they can "work". Case in point...two Dallas area schools are matched up beyond round 1 and coach A asks for a crew that coach B would never agree to. As far as I know, there was no further discussion or negotiating. They just went somewhere else.
Now with the championship games...I like the suggestion of limiting a crew to working one game every three years. At some point, these "championship" crews are going to take off the stripes or suffer from diminishing skills and not work anymore. Other crews have to be ready to fill the gap. These four or five crews we see every year are really good at what they do. I have been told that many coaches ask crews with championship game experience. Well, there are only ten each year so somehow UIL/TASO has to spread the wealth around.
One last thing... go over to scout.com and read the thread "REFS, you get what you pay for..." and see what these coaches really think about our work...most of us already know
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How exactly is going off of coach rankings a poor way to select playoff officials, butttttt allowing coaches to pick crews works??? I mean let's be honest, coaches run everything in football in this state.
I never said allowing them to pick crews works either
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I agree with the inequity. Always been there, likely always will.
But no matter how they are assigned, someone will get butt hurt! hEaDbAnG
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I never said allowing them to pick crews works either
Mike,
I am pretty sure you are widely respected and many folks (myself included) would like to hear what you think would be a viable solution to this quandary
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I think there has to be a better way than what we do for crew selection but I hesitate to start charging at people with pitchforks because I don't have a solution. I would be like to hear real, thought out ideas that y'all might have for crew assignments.
As people have said there is no perfect solution, however Id agree that your current situation leaves a lot to be desired.
Over in the UK we have a selection panel consisting of six members and a chairman (2 members stand down each year).
"The Selection Committee shall use a rating system as a tool to help it in its work. The system shall combine a number of factors (which may be changed from time to time). Each factor is scored out of 100 then a weighting applied to give a score for each official. The table below lists the current factors and the weight they will count towards the final rating:
- experience in years and games 10%
exam marks 30%
quality of judgement (peer assessed) 10%
reaction under pressure (peer assessed) 10%
assessors' marks 30% (normalised average of assessments in last 2 years)
game report marks (crew self-assessment) 5%
coaches card marks 5%"
Our system does of course put forward the best officials for each position not a full crew. Not a perfect system but has got to be better than coaches selecting.
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The FTW games are both being covered by one crew. To say this caused a stir in our chapter would be a bit of understatement. I think there has to be a better way than what we do for crew selection but I hesitate to start charging at people with pitchforks because I don't have a solution. I would be like to hear real, thought out ideas that y'all might have for crew assignments.
So was the FTW crew that's working two finals get selected or were they coach picks?
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The coaches selected the crew from FTW for both games they are covering this weekend.
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Just to clarify, the discussion in the FW chapter is not about the crew working both games, it is whether the BOD violated OP and written contracts.
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Unfortunately, what are seeing (2 crews working 2 games each) is the result of our present system. The UIL, in their infinite wisdom, has dictated that coaches have all of the power to agree to their officials, which somehow has been bastardized to "coaches get to pick their officials." The UIL rules do not dictate picking of officials. Each chapter makes that decision. Coaches, according to UIL rules, have to "mutually agree" to the officials that will call their game. Nowhere do the UIL rules deal with "picking officials."
Mutual Agreement means that the coaches have to both concur to the assignment of the officials that will be working their game. Some chapters take the call from the UIL or coaches for playoffs and tell the coaches they can pick, and some chapters tell the coaches, give us your guidelines (all D1, playoff experience, racial diversity) and we will assign a crew that you will have to agree upon before they work the game.
Unless the UIL specifically addresses the "picking" of officials, which can clearly lead to conflicts of interest, it is very unlikely to ever change. The UIL does whatever it can to keep football coaches happy, since football playoff games are by far their main source of revenue.
Chapters that allow picking of officials are unlikely to change, since this puts the decision making in the hands of chapter leaders. Allowing coaches to pick officials is akin to allowing you to select what cop gets to sit on the side of the road you travel on each day. You want him to write tickets and slow down all the drivers that are not your friends and family.
The chapters that do a combination or solely assign also have their share of issues. Someone will always be in disagreement with who or how when it comes to the assignments. And, there is always the potential for those in power to abuse their power and take what they want.
For those of us not working 2 games this week, or even 1, we have to decide if officiating high school football in Texas is something we want to continue to do or if volleyball or maybe fishing might be a better alternative. For me, I'll continue for a few more years, but what we are seeing this weekend sure doesn't make me want to stick around too much longer. When it's no longer fun, time to hand it up. That gets closer at the end of every year.
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For those of us not working 2 games this week, or even 1, we have to decide if officiating high school football in Texas is something we want to continue to do or if volleyball or maybe fishing might be a better alternative. For me, I'll continue for a few more years, but what we are seeing this weekend sure doesn't make me want to stick around too much longer. When it's no longer fun, time to hand it up. That gets closer at the end of every year.
I'm with you Doc. It's a decision some of us are considering. I'll hang in there, but the future doesn't look too bright.
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Unless the UIL specifically addresses the "picking" of officials, which can clearly lead to conflicts of interest, it is very unlikely to ever change. The UIL does whatever it can to keep football coaches happy, since football playoff games are by far their main source of revenue.
UIL is the governing body for high school sports in Texas, right? Why should UIL care if the coaches are happy or not...how would the coaches being unhappy affect UIL?
Are you saying that UIL does something coaches dont like, that the coaches could withhold the playoff revenue from UIL??? That makes no sense...I thought that the UIL governs the contest and then distributes revenue to the schools. UIL negotiates contracts with AT&T Stadium or NRG, or whomever, right? The money would still flow through the UIL....maybe the schools would be encouraged to negotiate a revenue split that reduces the UIL's cut??
Is UIL afraid they will somehow no longer be the governing body if they do something good for the sport that removes something from the coaches?
Maybe I dont understand the relationship with UIL and the schools?
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UIL is the governing body for high school sports in Texas, right? Why should UIL care if the coaches are happy or not...how would the coaches being unhappy affect UIL?
Are you saying that UIL does something coaches dont like, that the coaches could withhold the playoff revenue from UIL??? That makes no sense...I thought that the UIL governs the contest and then distributes revenue to the schools. UIL negotiates contracts with AT&T Stadium or NRG, or whomever, right? The money would still flow through the UIL....maybe the schools would be encouraged to negotiate a revenue split that reduces the UIL's cut??
Is UIL afraid they will somehow no longer be the governing body if they do something good for the sport that removes something from the coaches?
Maybe I dont understand the relationship with UIL and the schools?
Schools are not forced to be members of the UIL. They are free to join any league they want. Now, the UIL is the biggest league currently, but anyone could create a new league and then try to convince schools to join it.
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The Coby Plan:
Every region submit 12 crews to be evaluated. Each crews evaluation consists of HUDL film review. They must submit a playlist of every penalty and coach complaint no call they had in (week 2,3,4,5,6,7 Friday games). Easily verified thru Zware evals and foul reports. Every crew that wishes to be put up for consideration for a state championship game must also submit a $100 evaluation fee. I will verify that they submitted their evaluation correctly, then turn the "video resumes" over to the evaluators (not me). Who will then choose the top 15 crews from across the state, and split the evaluation fee money between them. Then TASO states that the only crews eligible for state championship games are these 15 crews, coaches pick whichever ones you can agree upon. We will only take out "home chapter" crews if the teams are from different regions. So the Houston crews will not be eligible for a Houston game.
HUDL usage goes up (good for officiating)
There is a system of equity (good for morale)
I honestly believe that if we went to the coaches with a plan they would be willing to try the plan. We never approach them with an alternative so they keep doing what they have always done.
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The Coby Plan:
Every region submit 12 crews to be evaluated. Each crews evaluation consists of HUDL film review. They must submit a playlist of every penalty and coach complaint no call they had in (week 2,3,4,5,6,7 Friday games). Easily verified thru Zware evals and foul reports. Every crew that wishes to be put up for consideration for a state championship game must also submit a $100 evaluation fee. I will verify that they submitted their evaluation correctly, then turn the "video resumes" over to the evaluators (not me). Who will then choose the top 15 crews from across the state, and split the evaluation fee money between them. Then TASO states that the only crews eligible for state championship games are these 15 crews, coaches pick whichever ones you can agree upon. We will only take out "home chapter" crews if the teams are from different regions. So the Houston crews will not be eligible for a Houston game.
HUDL usage goes up (good for officiating)
There is a system of equity (good for morale)
I honestly believe that if we went to the coaches with a plan they would be willing to try the plan. We never approach them with an alternative so they keep doing what they have always done.
Would any crew from those 15 that are selected be able to work multiple games or would it be one and done?
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My ideal one would be very similar to Coby's. Understanding the completion of foul reports and zebraware is inconsistent around the state. That piece might have to be tweaked.
Essentially, some sort of system where potential crews are identified early in the year so they can be evaluated by several different methods during the season and then a "selectee list". I am even willing to let UIL assign the crews to games if they use the evaluations that TASO provides.
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But with that plan you mix the "good ole boy system" back in
Who in the region gets to select the "top" crews for consideration??????
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Hit the wrong button....
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I'm all for a fair evaluation system. That opens the door to fighting among chapters, but something objective is better than allowing coaches to select.
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UIL is the governing body for high school sports in Texas, right? Why should UIL care if the coaches are happy or not...how would the coaches being unhappy affect UIL?
Are you saying that UIL does something coaches dont like, that the coaches could withhold the playoff revenue from UIL??? That makes no sense...I thought that the UIL governs the contest and then distributes revenue to the schools. UIL negotiates contracts with AT&T Stadium or NRG, or whomever, right? The money would still flow through the UIL....maybe the schools would be encouraged to negotiate a revenue split that reduces the UIL's cut??
Is UIL afraid they will somehow no longer be the governing body if they do something good for the sport that removes something from the coaches?
Maybe I dont understand the relationship with UIL and the schools?
Jason hit on most of this.
UIL is not a compulsory organization for public schools. They can choose what organization they want to join. There just so happens to only be one game in town for public schools in Texas right now, the UIL.
The UIL is run by the TEA, through the University of Texas in Austin. The rules of the UIL are voted upon by member school superintendents and approved by the TEA. The Commissioner of Education and the Board of Education for the State of Texas is ultimately in charge, but they rarely, if ever, get involved with UIL issues. They are essentially a rubber stamp.
Since the UIL makes the rules and the rules are approved by superintendents, if you want to be a member, and I don't know of any public school (outside of some charter schools) that are not members, then you play by the rules. Currently, every UIL high school football playoff game in the state pays the UIL 15% of the gate receipts for each game. That is a HUGE amount of money, so the more playoff games that are played, the more the UIL makes. Thus, the playoffs have been expanding to more and more schools over the last 35 or so years.
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The Coby Plan:
Every region submit 12 crews to be evaluated. Each crews evaluation consists of HUDL film review. They must submit a playlist of every penalty and coach complaint no call they had in (week 2,3,4,5,6,7 Friday games). Easily verified thru Zware evals and foul reports. Every crew that wishes to be put up for consideration for a state championship game must also submit a $100 evaluation fee. I will verify that they submitted their evaluation correctly, then turn the "video resumes" over to the evaluators (not me). Who will then choose the top 15 crews from across the state, and split the evaluation fee money between them. Then TASO states that the only crews eligible for state championship games are these 15 crews, coaches pick whichever ones you can agree upon. We will only take out "home chapter" crews if the teams are from different regions. So the Houston crews will not be eligible for a Houston game.
HUDL usage goes up (good for officiating)
There is a system of equity (good for morale)
I honestly believe that if we went to the coaches with a plan they would be willing to try the plan. We never approach them with an alternative so they keep doing what they have always done.
How are chapters that do not utilize crews able to be eligible under this plan?
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Great point. I think they would submit a "crew" but then the eval work would be compounded as you would have to look at multiple games each week for them
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For the FTW schools, the coaches in both games picked the same crew.
We have this discussion every year around this time. This my entertainment on my late December trips that my sales guy loves to schedule...... :)
But, it is what it is.
There is *NO* solution that is currently being used, or that has been offered that will keep this thread (and its kid sister "why doesnt me/my chapter get more playoff games" thread) from happening. None. People say "there has to be a better way". Really, does there? The bottom line is this: there are 10 games. Thats it. There are probably 100 crews in this state minimum that could effectively work a state championship game. So 10% of those crews are going to get a game regardless of what system is being used. There will be some % of the rest who are shut out that will complain about the unfairness of the system.
So right now, a Chapter gets picked either by UIL assigned or Mutual agreement of the coaches to use that chapter. The chapter presents X amount of crews, or maybe the coaches have a specific crew in mind already (like the Tyler crew that snags a couple of Championship games every year). If the Coaches pick crew A, and crew A was presented to multiple coaches if that chapter got multiple games, then Crew A can get multiple games. The only way to avoid that would be not to present Crew A again. But, if the coaches from the 2nd game know crew A exists, and that is who they want to use... then what, tell the no? Heck NO!. Crew A gets the 2nd game as well. And that is OK with me because there is no system that is perfect.
Coby's plan is faught with just as many issues, they just come from the subjective point of view evaluation process. You can talk about hudl, but at the end of the day, grades are given through human eyes, and the only way to make sure it is consistent, is to have one person do it. Since none of us do this full time.... or unless TxMike is volunteering the rest of his days to grading hudl....
But, these threads allow me some enjoyment on the plane rides home ;D
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I think we are on the right track getting away from the coaches picking. My first thought was to get the coaches to just agree on the chapter they can agree to use and let the assigning secretary send the crew that deserved it...but then you run into the chapters that have assigning secretaries that think their crew is that crew when they might or might not be. Either way, you run into an unfair system again.
Then you have the Coby plan. As that is a great idea, how do you determine who the 12 crews will be when you have the number of crews that Houston, San Antonio, Dallas and Fort Worth have? The crews that don't get submitted will say they should be one of the 12. It's a great plan if you can iron out the wrinkles to make it fair.
I like the Hudl grading idea, but who is going to grade that much film? Which brings the idea of the 12 crews to lower the amount of film to grade, but then begs the question about the chapters that don't utilize crews.
I'm all for the system changing, the coaches hold too much power in my honest opinion. But I can't think of a fair and unbiased way of doing it. The only way I could think of doing it but would not be possible is to totally remove the coaches picking the crew for the game and have someone with no dog in the fight do the selections, either someone not on the field or someone not calling high school ball. How do they go about picking the crew you ask?..film. Each coach is required to submit film to the chapter, no exceptions. How does the assigning secretary review all the film?...impossible which is why my plan fails. If you can figure out how to get film graded and implement a grading system to differentiate the crews or positions, then you are on the right track. But there is so much football played in the state that the film is so overwhelming you just cant do it all in one week.
Now, feel free to turn what I have said into Swiss cheese!
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" But there is so much football played in the state that the film is so overwhelming you just cant do it all in one week."
As an example, I know that WAC at one time had 5-6 guys grading film each week with only 8 games a week. For Texas HS football we would need several hundred people (or more) to grade films.
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Great conversation which is the first step to solving a problem
1. Each region can determine how they get to the 12 crews. I like the idea of local control. Whatever works in Houston will not work in the Panhandle. So let the regions decide.
2. Crews vs No Crews. They would just have to use crews for 5-6 weeks. Right now they are not getting invited to the dance. If they change how they do things for 5-6 weeks then they will have an opportunity to get invited to the dance. The local board can decide how to handle that.
3. Yes lots of HUDL review which is why each crew comes up with a $100 eval cost
4. Have no problem with expanding it to the last 3 rounds of the playoffs this way every crew has to get evaluated in a semi game or quarter game by a live person to then make the finals.
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I really dont think the Coby Plan would take that long to evaluate. 1 game=12 fouls plus 8 plays that coaches want an explanation on. So 1 game= app 20 plays so 6 games = 120 plays which is basically half of a game.
So 12 crews submitting 120 plays= 6 games worth of plays to watch per region. I think there are 10 Regions so 60 games worth of film is all there will be to evaluate.
It is a best practice to pull all of your penalties after every game. It would literally take me 10 minutes per game to create a playlist that meets the standards I laid out earlier.
If every crew is at the very least pulling their penalties to review they will by default become better. I highly doubt that every region will have 12 crews go thru the application process. At worse after all of this is done TASO State will have about 1200 penalties to create training modules from.
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Keep it Simple!!
Step 1 Stop Allowing Coaches to select crews!!!!!!!!! PERIOD! That means regular season too.
Step 2 Put the Finals on a rotation each year. At the beginning of the year it is assigned what chapters will work what Final game. And just rotate each year from that. The chapter will then decide who goes to represent their chapter in whatever fashion they choose to do so. Hopefully they will do whats best and rotate that as well with their better crews.
Seems pretty damn simple to me!
YES someone will still get butthurt! But that will ALWAYS be the case!
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Well didn't think about the fact of having a chapter with teams from his area in the finals! lol
Obviously would just have to shuffle around based on that factor.
But the point is UIL assign chapters to a game. Then chapter assign the crew!
It is completely the dumbest thing ever that they EVER allowed coaches to start requesting and selecting crews! That for sure HAS to be reigned in before anything will begin to improve!
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Cowtown... It all goes back to the same argument our founding fathers had. Do you decide representation by population size or is every chapter equal. So under your keep it simple idea Houston have 1000+ members is on the same rotation as Pecan Valley having 100 members? Which is fine but realize if that happens Houston will immediately break into 10 separate chapters.
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You can play with that as well. Maybe 2 to 1 on the bigger chapters. Or every other year for the smaller. Minor detail in the scheme of things to be figured out.
Just spread the wealth (oh lawd I sound like Obama) around and make it as fair as possible for ALL chapters!
But for God Sake, STOP LETTING COACHES have any say so in deciding who officiates their games!!!!!!
I run athletic leagues and programs as my profession and have been doing so for 21 years! I WOULD NEVER EVER allow a coach to decide who I put on their field! And Ive had TONS of coaches, tell me they don't want a certain umpire on their field. My answer for 21 years has been, "sorry coach, not your call"!
THAT HAS TO STOP!
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But for God Sake, STOP LETTING COACHES have any say so in deciding who officiates their games!!!!!!
I attended a meeting at the UIL about 10 or 12 years ago when the present head of the UIL was the UIL athletic director. The meeting was held to address officiating issues and concerns. The one thing the good Dr. B said at the beginning of the meeting that he made clear to everyone, the "right" of coaches to agree upon officials will never change.
Well, never say never, but even when he retires, I'm sure this will not change. That "right," given to the coaches by the UIL, has always been misunderstood by many chapters as "the right to pick."
Chapters will not change this, and the UIL sure won't, so any discussion along those lines is really a waste of time.
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Thanks for the info. Good to know!
It is what it is, so moving on!
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You can play with that as well. Maybe 2 to 1 on the bigger chapters. Or every other year for the smaller. Minor detail in the scheme of things to be figured out.
Just spread the wealth (oh lawd I sound like Obama) around and make it as fair as possible for ALL chapters!
But for God Sake, STOP LETTING COACHES have any say so in deciding who officiates their games!!!!!!
I run athletic leagues and programs as my profession and have been doing so for 21 years! I WOULD NEVER EVER allow a coach to decide who I put on their field! And Ive had TONS of coaches, tell me they don't want a certain umpire on their field. My answer for 21 years has been, "sorry coach, not your call"!
THAT HAS TO STOP!
Agree. I also agree with passing the games around the chapter OR allowing the coaches to agree to a chapter, but cannot pick the crew. I am fine with them agreeing to a chapter. Might not have great representation passed around the many chapters of the state, but it does pull some power away form the coaches and still pleases them in the sense that they can agree on what chapter to use...that I think is fair. It also eliminates the worry of a Houston crew assigned a Houston school game and the reassigning issue that could be faced. But, having the chapter select the officiating crew would be more crooked then the coaches selecting the crew, in my opinion. Unless you have someone selecting the crews for the games that is either fair and passes the opportunity around or doesn't have any skin in the game, then my fear is that the individual selecting will be more favorable to the crew he is on and his good ole boys then the chapter as a whole.
To you Coby, maybe 12 fouls on average, but even then why just grade the fouls? Why wouldn't you grade the entire game? What if some of the crews that are selected miss more than they call? I wouldn't want something like that to be in a State game. I believe the whole game needs to be graded instead of the plays the coach submits and the fouls that are called. But for your process to work, only grading the fouls called and the coaches plays work. I cant remember if I read it, but what is the selection process for the 12 crews? How are they eligible and do you have a restriction for the following years? If they are part of the 12 selected, are they eligible for 1 season? 2 seasons? Just wanting to understand because that is a smart idea.
I think that "right" can be changed. Anything can change! To be honest, it is a conflict of interest! Officials tiptoe around rules and fouls because the coach might not like the particular call and that call might cause the coach to not pick us in the playoffs or ever again.
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I really dont think the Coby Plan would take that long to evaluate. 1 game=12 fouls plus 8 plays that coaches want an explanation on. So 1 game= app 20 plays so 6 games = 120 plays which is basically half of a game.
So 12 crews submitting 120 plays= 6 games worth of plays to watch per region. I think there are 10 Regions so 60 games worth of film is all there will be to evaluate.
It is a best practice to pull all of your penalties after every game. It would literally take me 10 minutes per game to create a playlist that meets the standards I laid out earlier.
If every crew is at the very least pulling their penalties to review they will by default become better. I highly doubt that every region will have 12 crews go thru the application process. At worse after all of this is done TASO State will have about 1200 penalties to create training modules from.
If you only want to evaluate quality of calls made but I think equally relevant are fouls not called that should have been. That would require looking at every play. That's also the only way to evaluate and a grade mechanics.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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This is the 2015 Sunset Advisory Commission report on the UIL, from February 2015. It is an interesting read if you have a while to waste.
https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/UIL%20Agency%20Section.pdf (https://www.sunset.texas.gov/public/uploads/files/reports/UIL%20Agency%20Section.pdf)
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From the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules, I present Rule 1204. This is what governs officials who work UIL member games. Read the first sentence.
"AGREEMENT. All officials must be satisfactory to both parties and agreed upon in advance.
However, beginning a game with an official constitutes agreement"
This is where coaches are getting their "right" to pick officials.
What's interesting is that no where in this document is there reference to TASO or Texas Association of Sports Officials. It does say we all have to registered with the UIL. I'm not quite certain this is the most current revision.
http://www.uiltexas.org/files/constitution/uil-ccr-section-1204.pdf (http://www.uiltexas.org/files/constitution/uil-ccr-section-1204.pdf)
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This discussion makes me oddly homesick. Instead of complaining about crews working multiple state finals, we just complain about individually assigned officials doing so here in CA. ;D
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Like I stated earlier
No matter how you do it someone will get butt hurt!!!!!
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Do coaches get to pick or agree on officials in other sports? The UIL picks chapters to work different level playoffs and the chapters choose who gets to go. When I worked a regional wrestling tournament, the coaches did not get to pick which ref was on the mat with his kid. Why should football be any different than any other UIL sport?
Yes I know football is king, was born and raised here, but just because it always has been don't make it right.
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1204 applies to all sports -- not just to football. Having said that - there has been an evolution over my 24 years of what it means to "agree" to the officials.
When I started in Dallas we did not have crews -- and some coaches, not all, submitted a "preferred" and/or "scratch" list. This is how a coach exercised his "right" to agree on officials. The Assignment Committee then went to work to build schedules and sent them out by the summer. A coach could still exercise a right to scratch an official -- and he would be replaced. It was not big deal. Come playoffs, though, the Assignment Committee would make all the assignments (again with the right to scratch a guy). This lead to a lot of sour grapes because the same group of officials got all the "good" regular season games and got all the deep playoff games.
So, then we come along with crews. We form them different than others, but crews nonetheless. And we then agreed to allow the coaches to pick the crews for their games (with some restrictions) -- this essentially eliminated the scratch list. In fact, part of our agreement with the schools is that they have to take a crew as a whole -- they can't just the HL from a crew. Nor can they scratch a crew from week 8 if they did not like a call by the same crew is week 3. So, now come playoff time, if they have no preference, the Board still assigns the officials (not always by crew, bot often). But if the coaches request a crew --they get to work. I don't have a problem with that. It takes the politics out of the assignment. I have never worked beyond the 3rd round -- and my crew has been both assigned and requested in the playoffs. The requests come from out of town schools who know a Dallas area coach who gives a recommendation. Some crews get "picked" by reputation, or having worked prior games with the same teams from out of the area. Not sure a see a problem with 2 coaches agreeing to use a particular crew from Tyler or FW or where ever.
Now, TASO might want to consider a policy (have to be at the TASO level not the chapter level) that in the best interests of officiating limits an official (or crew of officials) to working 1 state championship game per year (or every three years), and if such official is requested by multiple teams, that the first teams that request the official(s) gets him.
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I thought we had a bad system in Indiana, but this discussion is making me realize yours is much worse. Coaches have a lot of say in which crews work the tournament, but it's much more indirect. With as many crews as you have, there have to be at least 10 crews qualified to work a state final each year. No crew should work more than one.
Our system has each crew getting a score based on several criteria. Half of the score is based on several factors the crew has some control over: meeting attendance, years of experience, tournament experience, test score, games worked. The other half is based on a coach vote (the indirect part). The coaches in a particular game have no say over the crew they get, but their collective vote is a major criteria where crews are ranked. Every school can vote for every crew so there are situations where one crew will get 80-100 votes while most crews get 20-35 votes. The extra votes are generally positive so they have a huge impact. The ranking then helps the commissioner at the IHSAA assign crews to games. It is a one-man selection committee.
We do have an observer program that started about 5 years ago, but there is still some uncertainty to their role in the process. They get the equivalent to 1 coach vote and their feedback may play a role when the commissioner is trying to decide between two closely ranked crews.
The other part that I think may be good for you to consider. The tournament is 6 rounds and the last 4 rounds must have at least half the crews being "new" crews. New is defined as a crew that hasn't worked a state final. That is based on the referee. If there are 3-4 guys who have worked a state final, but the referee wasn't the white hat on the crew at the time, they are considered a "new" crew. This does help to prevent all state final crews from being repeats. A crew can't work a round until they have worked the previous round in a previous year. For example, even if a crew gets a very high ranking, they may not work a semi-final or final if they have never worked past the 3rd round any previous season.
Once a crew works a state final, they can't work further than a 3rd round game the following season. They could one further round each year returning to the final no earlier than 4 years later.
Other than the importance of the coach vote in the ranking, the logistics of the system do help get some new blood each year in the finals. For the most part the crews working the finals are decent crews. They aren't necessarily better than crews getting only 1 or 2 rounds, but they have the right mix of factors to advance.
Your system of having chapters identify top crews (# should be based on size of chapter) and those chapters assigning the early rounds makes sense. But don't let the coaches have a say in the specific crews. Then for the final rounds (semi-final/final), submit them to the state and let them assign again with no approval from the coaches. Then put criteria in place that crews can't return to the semi-finals/finals any earlier than 3-5 years since their last appearance.
Ultimately no system is perfect. I have friends in the NFL who complain about their system. Whatever your system is you know what it is going in. Control the things you can control and let everything fall where they may. If you don't enjoy working the games you get then maybe you don't enjoy this as much as you think.
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There are always going to be people who are willing to do anything and everything they can to get what they want. Our organization is too big to evaluate everyone and we are too locked into "the way we've always done it". State championship selections will not change in my lifetime.
Since our chapter put in HUDL and started doing evaluations, nothing has changed. The same crews get the same games because the coaches are allowed to cherry pick the crews. Coaches are creatures of habit and very risk averse when it comes to officials. They would rather have a bad crew that they know than one who might be better that they don't know.
If you want to work a state final, you need to get on the crew of a white hat who is already getting them. Building a crew from the ground up is a 20 year process...and even then there are no guarantees.
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Coaches are creatures of habit and very risk averse when it comes to officials. They would rather have a bad crew that they know than one who might be better that they don't know.
I think that pretty much sums up the basic issue. I doubt if we handed them a list at the picks that had every crew ranked, they would even refer to it unless somehow they were picking so low they were going to be forced to take a crew of unknowns.