Author Topic: Onside KO Fun (Read 17776 times)

TXMike · « **on:** May 20, 2013, 11:28:42 AM »

I understand there is video coming...but the play..

Onside kick attempt from A-35. Ball is bouncing near the sideline at the A-49 and crosses the sideline in the air. A20 is trying to keep the ball in play, steps on the sideline at the A-48, jumps in the air and volleyball bats the ball back towards the field of play. B30 is on the 50 when he grabs the ball from the air and steps out of bounds there. Ruling?

Wingmanbp · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2013, 12:06:29 PM »

Im thinking that it is illegal touching at the A48 where A20 touched it after going out of bounds but that seems too easy!

TXMike · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2013, 01:26:14 PM »

Just got the link to the video

http://youtu.be/A5NqpP-SS-8

scl-man · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2013, 01:53:26 PM »

6-1-2-f says A20 is prohibited from returning inbounds after he steps out of bounds at the A-48. However, in this play, A does not return inbounds. 4-1-2 says a player is out of bounds when any part of his person touches anything, other than another player or game official, on or outside a boundary line. There is no definition for a player being inbounds. In this case, A20 is in the air and not touching anything when he bats the kick, so he is not out of bounds. 6-1-3 says that all A players become eligible to touch, recover or catch the kick once the kick breaks the plane of and remains beyond Team B's restraining line. In this case the ball has remained beyond Team B's restraining line, the A-45, so A20 is eligible to touch it. So, to sum up: The kick is still live, the ball has traveled 10 yards making all A players eligible to touch it, and A20 is not out of bounds when he bats the kick. So, we would not have illegal touching.

The A player is prohibited from batting the ball forward (9-4-1-c). After reviewing the video, the bat is almost too close to call as far as being forward or backward. It looks like the A player makes contact with the ball at the A49 and the B player comes down with it at right around the same yard line. I probably would not call the illegal bat on this one.

I would rule: B 1/10 @ A-49, snap/25

TXMike · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2013, 02:02:43 PM »

Thought this looked familiar. It was on Rom Gilbert's site last year with this commentary:

We knew teams would have to be innovative to come up with new onside kick strategies in light of this year's rule changes which took some of their previous methods away from them. This play may be an example of one such new method. The kick is caused to bounce multiple times before taking a very high bounce near the sideline. Team A players know that is what the ball will be expected to do and they know where that bounce should occur so they try to run to a spot that allows them to leap and get the ball. In this particular play, there are many things to look at. These are things which are fairly easy to review as we enjoy the luxury of watching a video we can run forward and backward. A very grizzled old veteran official described this play best when he said: "The A player gets blocked out of bounds, returns inbounds immediately (legal), then steps out of bounds voluntarily, jumps, and bats the ball while airborne. The ball is touched in advance of the spot of the batting, making it illegal batting, while the A player returns to the ground out of bounds. So, no foul for illegal return. No illegal touching. Foul for illegal batting. You'd be all-frickin'-world if you got all that in real time. And you'd be all-frickin'-universe if you started the game clock on the legal touch/illegal batting by the A player (along with the all-world stuff)." It was a challenging play to officiate to be sure, but now you have all seen it and will be ready when it happens to you, right ? Some officials may believe that when a Team A player goes out of bounds voluntarily during a kick down, any subsequent participation by that player is/should be a foul. However, the current rules do not provide for any such foul except for the foul that occurs if and when that Team A player comes back in bounds, which he did not do here.

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:00:03 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on May 20, 2013, 11:28:42 AM

B30 is on the 50 when he grabs the ball from the air and steps out of bounds there. Ruling?

This didn't happen in the video but if it did, wouldn't we have a foul for a free kick out of bounds?

TXMike · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:13:55 PM »

You would, if the B player was airborne when he grabbed the ball and if you can bring yourself to acknowledge that nonsensical AR that makes this a kick out of bounds.

dvasques · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:15:09 PM »

I guess not under the same principle... the touching and grabing of the ball while airborne is legal. He lands out of bounds. B'b ball at the OB spot

There is an AR that goes against this logic? great!

TXMike · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:21:22 PM »

Yep There is an AR that effectively says a ball touched by an airborne team B player has not been touched inbounds so when the player becomes out of bounds (and has the ball) the ball is out of bounds. The ball is still a kick as no run has started yet.

dvasques · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »

so that would mean we have two rulings for team A and team B? Or even if a team B player touched the ball in the original case, that would still be considered legal?

Wingmanbp · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2013, 03:38:39 PM »

So if a player is out of bound when any part of his body is touches something out of bounds ( The sideline) in this instance. Then he is out of bounds. Therefore by definition of a ball out of bounds (A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches the ground, a player, a game official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line.) SO what am I missing here. If the player is out of bounds and the ball is out of bounds because it was touched by a player who is out of bounds, then whatever happens after that is pointless. ball is out at the A48.
Why is that not right?

dvasques · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2013, 04:15:33 PM »

because, by definition, that player is not out of bounds because he is not touching anything out of bounds... he is airborne

Also, I think this has been discussed no the other post about this but I don't remember... would this be the same on passes? The touching would be legal?

Wingmanbp · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2013, 05:39:59 PM »

But the definition says if it touches anything else that is on or beyond the boundary. The airborne player is beyond the boundary! Also how is the player not still out of bounds while airborne? is he not out of bounds until he re-establishes himself inbounds?
What is the difference between a team b player stepping out of bounds and while airborne batting a pass back inbounds and this kick situation?

Kalle · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2013, 03:14:49 AM »

Quote from: Wingmanbp on May 20, 2013, 05:39:59 PM

But the definition says if it touches anything else that is on or beyond the boundary. The airborne player is beyond the boundary! Also how is the player not still out of bounds while airborne? is he not out of bounds until he re-establishes himself inbounds?
What is the difference between a team b player stepping out of bounds and while airborne batting a pass back inbounds and this kick situation?

Rule 4-2-3-a is poorly written, in my opinion. It should be something like this: "A ball not in player possession, other than a kick that scores a field goal, is out of bounds when it touches an out of bounds player or the ground, a game official or anything else that is on or outside a boundary line."

NCAA football rules are not basketball rules. The player does not need to re-establish himself inbounds, he only needs to jump. Rule 4-2-1-a is very clear.

If a team B player goes out of bounds and jumps from there and bats the ball backward while airborne, it is a legal bat (and a legal touch), and the ball continues in play.

Wingmanbp · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2013, 06:17:56 AM »

Thanks that helps me understand a little bit more anyway

Morningrise · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2013, 10:00:44 AM »

Despite the counterintuitive AR, in this particular case there would be no foul for a free kick out of bounds, because Team A touched it before it became dead.

TXMike · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2013, 10:11:51 AM »

Not sure I follow your logic. Just because Team A touched it does not mean there is no possibilotity for a free kick OOB foul.

Etref · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2013, 11:26:55 AM »

Quote from: TXMike on May 21, 2013, 10:11:51 AM

Not sure I follow your logic. Just because Team A touched it does not mean there is no possibilotity for a free kick OOB foul.

Exactly, consider this....

Airborne A 34 catches the KO at the A42 and lands OOB.

Morningrise · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2013, 02:20:47 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on May 21, 2013, 10:11:51 AM

Not sure I follow your logic. Just because Team A touched it does not mean there is no possibilotity for a free kick OOB foul.

Oh wow, I was way out to lunch there. Never mind

dvasques · « **Reply #19 on:** June 18, 2013, 09:36:19 AM »

A little off the KO situation but still on airborne "out of bounds" players topic

fumble near the sideline after a running play, B50 steps out of bounds then jumps onto the field and, while airborne, bats the ball backwards and B70 recovers the fumble.
Legal play? (I'd go for that)

fumble near the sideline after a running play, B50 steps out of bounds then jumps onto the field and lands on the ball granting it's posession.
Would that be a foul or just ball out of bounds at the spot?

TXMike · « **Reply #20 on:** June 18, 2013, 11:06:55 AM »

First is legal. What foul are you thinking of on2d? I have b ball at spot where ball is assuming b got possession when he fell on it.

Kalle · « **Reply #21 on:** June 18, 2013, 02:06:46 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on June 18, 2013, 11:06:55 AM

First is legal. What foul are you thinking of on2d? I have b ball at spot where ball is assuming b got possession when he fell on it.

Agree. In both cases the player touching the ball not in player possession was not out of bounds, thus the ball does not become dead. A backward bat of a fumble in the field of play is legal, and there is no rule forbidding a team B player from touching (and recovering) the ball after going voluntarily out of bounds.

dvasques · « **Reply #22 on:** June 18, 2013, 09:07:59 PM »

I was thinking maybe there would be some foul for B player being out of bounds but I couldn't find any thing saying it was not allowed
I thougnt maybe B player was to be considered out of bounds because he was once out of bounds but then I remembered the whole discussion about it in this topic and decided this was the best place to ask the question

TXMike · « **Reply #23 on:** June 18, 2013, 09:12:24 PM »

Remember, a player who is out of bounds does not have to "re-establish" himself in bounds.

dvasques · « **Reply #24 on:** June 18, 2013, 09:18:03 PM »

So in the case of this happening with a Team A player, things would be the same. No foul since you can't call 7-3-4 on this because it's a fumble