play clock - foul plus helmet off or injury?

[zebra99]

Just when I thought I understood it.  Take a look at plays 8 and 10 on RR’s latest 10 second runoff CFO memo.  Play 8 is a foul by A and a B helmet off.  Play 10 is an A foul and a B injury.  Both say the play clock is set at 40.  I thought that if there is a foul it's a 25 second play clock notwithstanding the helmet or injury.

Can someone point to me where 3-2-4-c-1 is trumped by the other play clock rules re: injury and helmet off when a foul occurs?

What am I missing?

Thanks.

[Jpdeemer]

If the reason for the stoppage of the clock is by both teams then a 10 second 'zap' is not available.  In both examples, the offense threw the ball out of bounds in an effort to stop the clock.  This is one of the fouls available to subtract 10 seconds (3-4-4-a-4).  Also in both examples, an injured player or helmet coming off without a penalty is another way to subtract 10 seconds (3-3-9-b-1).  With both teams causing the clock to stop, neither team can be penalized and because the defense was the injured team/team helmet came off, the play clock is set to 40 seconds (3-3-5-f-2).  Kinda long winded, but hope that helps.

[zebra99]

If the reason for the stoppage of the clock is by both teams then a 10 second 'zap' is not available.  In both examples, the offense threw the ball out of bounds in an effort to stop the clock.  This is one of the fouls available to subtract 10 seconds (3-4-4-a-4).  Also in both examples, an injured player or helmet coming off without a penalty is another way to subtract 10 seconds (3-3-9-b-1).  With both teams causing the clock to stop, neither team can be penalized and because the defense was the injured team/team helmet came off, the play clock is set to 40 seconds (3-3-5-f-2).  Kinda long winded, but hope that helps.

Thanks - you said "neither team can be penalized" - what about the illegal forward pass?  You cite the rule for a 40 second play clock (3-3-5-f-2) but what about 3-2-4-c-1?  I'm looking for rule authority which states the 40 B injury/helmet play clock trumps the 25 second administration of a penalty play clock.  What about this play - A has 5 in the backfield and B is injured/helmet off on the play.  What is the play clock?

What always bugs me about the rules as currently stated is the "What stopped the clock?" important question. On these plays we have multiple reasons for stopping the clock - helmet off, live ball OB and foul.  So what stopped the clock so we can figure it out?  Actually all three but the rules don't state a hierarchy!

[NVFOA_Ump]

My take on 3-2-4-b and 3-2-4-c is that they both use the word "shall" so I read them as setting the priority of the play clock (40 or 25).  Therefore, if the game clock stopped due to a penalty on A, the play clock goes to 25 (3-2-4-c-1).

What about this play - A has 5 in the backfield and B is injured/helmet off on the play.  What is the play clock?

My read of 3-2-4-c-1 says that due to the penalty flag on A the play clock shall be set at 25.

[Andrew McCarthy]

It seems like the intent of putting 40 on the play clock for a Team B helmet off or injury is to prevent the tactic of having a helmet come off or someone faking an injury to stop the clock and conserve time.  If the clock is stopping for other reasons and the play clock would have been set at 25 whether the Team B helmet/injury occured or not then I don't see why we need to put 40 on it.

However, I don't believe the rule is currently written this way.

Also, for a Team B injury under 1:00 where Team A declines the 10-second runoff, putting 40 on the play clock when the game clock will not start until the snap seems incredibly stupid to me.

[zebra99]

My take on 3-2-4-b and 3-2-4-c is that they both use the word "shall" so I read them as setting the priority of the play clock (40 or 25).  Therefore, if the game clock stopped due to a penalty on A, the play clock goes to 25 (3-2-4-c-1).

My read of 3-2-4-c-1 says that due to the penalty flag on A the play clock shall be set at 25.

so how do you feel about RR's plays 8 and 10 regarding the play clock?

[zebra99]

It seems like the intent of putting 40 on the play clock for a Team B helmet off or injury is to prevent the tactic of having a helmet come off or someone faking an injury to stop the clock and conserve time.  If the clock is stopping for other reasons and the play clock would have been set at 25 whether the Team B helmet/injury occured or not then I don't see why we need to put 40 on it.

However, I don't believe the rule is currently written this way.

Also, for a Team B injury under 1:00 where Team A declines the 10-second runoff, putting 40 on the play clock when the game clock will not start until the snap seems incredibly stupid to me.

so how do you feel about RR's plays 8 and 10 regarding the play clock?

[Andrew McCarthy]

so how do you feel about RR's plays 8 and 10 regarding the play clock?

I think in both cases the play clock should be 25.

Also, these aren't great examples because if Team A was trying to conserve time by throwing the ball OB then they aren't going to let the play clock run down no matter what we set it at.  Your illegal formation example is better.

[NVFOA_Ump]

so how do you feel about RR's plays 8 and 10 regarding the play clock?

I would agree with Andrew.  The clear intent of the 25-40 sec rules are to prevent either team from directly benefitting from an intentional and/or "illegal" act that would ultimately result in 0-15 secs of time on the play clock in their favor.

[justaLJ]

After reading RR's play situations, this is how the play clock stuff boiled down in my simple mind.  Happy to have others poke holes if there is any flawed logic or conclusion:

Anytime there is a B helmet off or a B injury, in combination with a foul, helmet off, or injury by A or B, the play clock will be set to 40.  If the only thing is a B helmet off, under a minute, the play clock is 25.

[Jpdeemer]

After reading RR's play situations, this is how the play clock stuff boiled down in my simple mind.  Happy to have others poke holes if there is any flawed logic or conclusion:

Anytime there is a B helmet off or a B injury, in combination with a foul, helmet off, or injury by A or B, the play clock will be set to 40.  If the only thing is a B helmet off, under a minute, the play clock is 25.

Sorry but I have to disagree.  It doesn't matter if it is within 1 minute or not, the play clock will be at 40 sec for defense helmet coming off or injury and play clock will be at 25 sec if offensive helmet coming off or injury.
3-4-c-4 = (25 sec) "Injury timeout for a player of the offensive team only. The play clock
is set to 40 seconds for an injury to a player of the defensive team."
3-4-c-13 = (25 sec) "An offensive team player’s helmet comes completely off through play.
The play clock is set to 40 seconds if the helmet comes completely off a player of the defensive team. [Exception: If there is an option for a 10-second subtraction in either half the play clock is set at 25 seconds for any player.]
When play is to be resumed, the referee will give the ready-for-play signal [S1] and the play clock will begin the 25-second count."

[justaLJ]

To clarify, my attempt was to simplfy what happens when there are "combination" events.

It doesn't matter if it is within 1 minute or not, the play clock will be at 40 sec for defense helmet coming off or injury and play clock will be at 25 sec if offensive helmet coming off or injury.

If a B helmet off is the only thing causing the game clock to be stopped under 1 minute, the option of a 10-second run off applies, so play clock will be 25.

[Andrew McCarthy]

It seems like you've got it.