Is this a legal or illegal play?

[monkeyade]

Theres heated debates on several MB's regarding the ending of last weekends Mission Viejo of California and Don Bosco Prep of New Jersey.

The scenerio is as follows. MV going for tying FG in OT, theres a bad snap and holder picks ball up and rolls to right and throws to a man behind los who runs for a first down. There are lineman downfield but the pass was behind los. Also, NJ fans are saying play is dead because holders knee is down. We went over rulebook and it seems like a legal play to most. Can a official make a ruling on this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grew5i3fUIk

Play starts at 4 min mark. Thx in advance for those who know the rules.

[JasonTX]

Theres heated debates on several MB's regarding the ending of last weekends Mission Viejo of California and Don Bosco Prep of New Jersey.

The scenerio is as follows. MV going for tying FG in OT, theres a bad snap and holder picks ball up and rolls to right and throws to a man behind los who runs for a first down. There are lineman downfield but the pass was behind los. Also, NJ fans are saying play is dead because holders knee is down. We went over rulebook and it seems like a legal play to most. Can a official make a ruling on this?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grew5i3fUIk

Play starts at 4 min mark. Thx in advance for those who know the rules.

In all football rule codes the holders knee is always on the ground and the ball not dead.  The rules excempt him from being down by rule to a certain extent.  Some else can chime in on what the Fed rule is exactly since that is what that game was played under.  In NCAA, the holder is not down as long as there is a player in position to kick or has just simulated kicking the ball.  He can rise up and pass the ball legally.

[HLinNC]

The holder must rise to run, hand,or pass.  Under the description given, legal play.

[Kalle]

In NCAA rules this is 100% legal. The holder does not need to rise up to pass the ball.

[bama_stripes]

Sure looks like a legal play to me.

[maven]

The applicable provision in NFHS is 4-2-2a EXCEPTIONS, which provides exceptions to the rule that any runner is down when his knee touches the ground:

EXCEPTIONS:

1. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position catches or recovers the snap while his knee(s) is on the ground and places the ball for a kick, or if he rises to advance, hand, kick or pass; or

2. The ball remains live if, at the snap, a place-kick holder with his knee(s) on the ground and with a teammate in kicking position rises and catches or recovers an errant snap and immediately returns his knee(s) to the ground and places the ball for a kick or again rises to advance, hand, kick or pass.

NOTE: The ball becomes dead if the place-kick holder muffs the snap or fumbles and recovers after his knees have been off the ground, and he then touches the ground with other than hand or foot while in possession of the ball.

BTW, I'm a fan of Sumstine's idea of extending this exception to the punter who kneels to field a low snap. That's a real killer for the team that's just trying to give away the ball anyway.

[bossman72]

How can they get a first down in OT?  I thought the Line to Gain was always the goal line?

[AlUpstateNY]

As noted the requirement that a "holder" rise off the ground before advancing, handing, kicking or passing is unique to NFHS rules.  If the holder initiates any of these actions, while maintaining contact with the ground, the play is immediately dead at that spot, and the down is ended.

Observing the holder, both as a protection against roughing, as well as violating this requirement is the responsibility of the Linesman (4 man) or Referee (5 man)
 

[maven]

How can they get a first down in OT?  I thought the Line to Gain was always the goal line?

Some states modify OT procedure. In Ohio, for instance, A starts 1/10 @ B20.

[monkeyade]

How can they get a first down in OT?  I thought the Line to Gain was always the goal line?

in Cali, they spot the ball on 25 yd line in ot.

[StudyingFutureZebra]

I watched the play a couple times, and it doesn't look like the holder had secured possession with his knee on the ground. #41 is the player who caught the ball, and he lined up as an end, so I'd say legal play. First down for the black team.

[monkeyade]

I watched the play a couple times, and it doesn't look like the holder had secured possession with his knee on the ground. #41 is the player who caught the ball, and he lined up as an end, so I'd say legal play. First down for the black team.

Unless I'm mistaken, the holder can field the ball with his knee on the ground and still be a live ball.

[bama_stripes]

I watched the play a couple times, and it doesn't look like the holder had secured possession with his knee on the ground.

Doesn't matter as long as the holder rises before passing or handing the ball.  That's the difference between NCAA & FED rules.

[NorCalMike]

in Cali, they spot the ball on 25 yd line in ot.

Not sure where you work but here in Sacramento the ball is spotted at the 10 yd line per Fed overtime procedures.

[monkeyade]

Not sure where you work but here in Sacramento the ball is spotted at the 10 yd line per Fed overtime procedures.

Im not an official, I was just watching the Mission Viejo vs Don Bosco Prep game, played in Cali. They placed the ball at 25.

[maven]

Im not an official, I was just watching the Mission Viejo vs Don Bosco Prep game, played in Cali. They placed the ball at 25.

If they were using NCAA rules, that would explain the spot.

[Ralph Damren]

Things that can happen on snap to holder : (1) bad snap > holder fields ball keeping knee on ground = keep playing; (2) bad snap .> holder's knee leaves  ground as he fields ball > holder's knee returns to ground = keep playing; (3) good snap > holder muffs but recovers it while keeping knee on ground = keep playing; (4) good snap > holder muffs it >knee leaves ground > holder recovers it & knee returns to ground = STOP playing; (5) good or bad snap > holder muffs ball > kicker gains possession = keep playing. Things that can happen when holder, while on his knee, has ball : (1) he can place it > kicker can kick it = good luck on the kick; (2) he can rise from knee > run, pass, hand off, drop kick or whatever = keep playing; (3) he can stay on his knee > pass, hand off, or whatever = STOP playing. There may be other senerios, but it's time for some lobster chowder ! 

[Kalle]

The above things apply to NFHS. In NCAA the holder may do whatever he likes and return to a holding position as long as there is a kicker in a position to perform a kick. You could even have a forward pass behind the LOS before the holder goes down for the kick, if you want.

[NJOfficial]

In NJ ball is placed on 25 in OT.