Play from crew quiz

[Rich]

A punts.  The ball, untouched by B, is batted by A from B's end zone (the ball does not hit the ground in the end zone) to the B4.  A B player recovers the ball and returns it to the B36, where he fumbles.  A44 recovers the ball, returns it to the B12, where he is tackled by a B player by the face mask.

Result? References?

[Diablo]

A punts.  The ball, untouched by B, is batted by A from B's end zone (the ball does not hit the ground in the end zone) to the B4.  A B player recovers the ball and returns it to the B36, where he fumbles.  A44 recovers the ball, returns it to the B12, where he is tackled by a B player by the face mask.

Result? References?

A 1/G @ B-6.

A.R. 6-3-2-II:  During a scrimmage kick, A1 commits a touching violation, after which B1 recovers, advances and fumbles. A2 recovers the fumble and, during the advance, B2 holds, trips or slugs. RULING: Team A may have the ball where left by the penalty for Team B’s foul; but if Team A declines the penalty, Team B will have the ball by electing the touching violation. B2 is disqualified if flagged for slugging.

[Kalle]

Just remember that an accepted penalty always cancels the illegal touching privilege.

[Rich]

Just remember that an accepted penalty always cancels the illegal touching privilege.

Not always.  A PSK foul or a foul on A during the kick wouldn't cancel the privilege on a 6-3-11 illegal touching violation, which was what I was describing in the OP.

And that was my hangup.  6-3-11 isn't very clear, but the A.R II and III makes it a lot clearer.  Once the foul is neither A during the kick or PSK by B, accepting the foul *does* wipe out the privilege.

Thanks for the reply and help.

[Kalle]

Not always.  A PSK foul or a foul on A during the kick wouldn't cancel the privilege on a 6-3-11 illegal touching violation, which was what I was describing in the OP.

You're absolutely right. I blame the flu.

[Morningrise]

Not always.  A PSK foul or a foul on A during the kick wouldn't cancel the privilege on a 6-3-11 illegal touching violation, which was what I was describing in the OP.

RR rewrote 6-3-11 a few years ago. The rule still says it's a special case of IT that is not canceled by an accepted penalty. But as Diablo and the ARs point out, sometimes it IS canceled by an accepted penalty.

So rather than think of it in those terms, what I remember is this: 6-3-11 specifies the B-20 as the PSK spot and as a possible spot for Team A "tack-on" penalties. To my knowledge, those are the only penalties where 6-3-11 matters. Any other penalties trump the IT privilege as usual. Is that correct?

[psv]

Thank you for posting this question:

Can someone please explain the differences between AR 6-3-2-II, III and IV?

They are all variations of Team A illegal touching, team B advancing and fumbling and team A recovering and running for a TD.  In AR 6-3-2-II, A can accept Team B's penalty and keep the ball.

6-3-2-III - During A's run, B70 holds... but B gets to keep the ball at the spot of the illegal touching.

6-3-2-IV - B70 holds during B40's run and A20 picks up the fumble and scores.

So, there seems to be some distinction here about an accepted penalty canceling illegal touching.

I guess I could really use some clarification on the differences between AR -II, III and IV and why team A cant accept team B's penalty in III and IV.

I am missing something, but I am not sure what.

Thanks all

[Rich]

RR rewrote 6-3-11 a few years ago. The rule still says it's a special case of IT that is not canceled by an accepted penalty. But as Diablo and the ARs point out, sometimes it IS canceled by an accepted penalty.

So rather than think of it in those terms, what I remember is this: 6-3-11 specifies the B-20 as the PSK spot and as a possible spot for Team A "tack-on" penalties. To my knowledge, those are the only penalties where 6-3-11 matters. Any other penalties trump the IT privilege as usual. Is that correct?

Well, I appreciate the discussion, because I feel like I understand this extremely well now.  Didn't before, struggled through the process, but I am pretty confident we'd enforce this right on the field if we have this Saturday.

[Kalle]

So, there seems to be some distinction here about an accepted penalty canceling illegal touching.

Actually, there is. If a team scores a touchdown, any non-PF/USC penalty against the opposing team is declined by rule. So, in 6-3-2-III, the foul by team B is declined by rule and team B gets the ball.

A.R. 6-3-2-IV modifies the above to allow penalty enforcement after the apparent score is cancelled. In effect first the score cancels the penalty, illegal touching takes effect and the illegal touching returns the penalty back to play, as the foul happened during team B's advance, so there is a valid enforcement spot. See rule 10-2-5-a-2.

[Kalle]

To elaborate a bit: nowadays, if you have a touchdown by team A during a kick down and you have a non-PF/USC foul by team B during the kick or the first return, and you have illegal touching by team A, the score is cancelled and team B gets the ball either at the spot of the illegal touching or where the penalty leaves it, at the option of team A.

[psv]

More questions on this:  I guess I am looking for some good rules of thumb or good exceptions.  Sorry if it seems like I am 

For 6-3-2-III -> What if A hadnt scored?  Would B still get the ball?  B70 held during A's run.  Is this just one of those rules that in order for A to keep the ball, they would have to accept the enforcement of B's hold from where it was (3-1 would put it at the end of the run though, wouldnt it) and declining the hold kicks in the fact that if there are no accepted penalties on the play, B gets the ball at the illegal touching spot?  Since it is a TD, B's hold cant be enforced, so B gets the ball back because of the Illegal touching?

[Diablo]

If Team A does not score, they retain possession of the ball after penalty enforcement for B70's holding foul.

If you haven't done so already .......
Rom Gilbert has 2 Mini Missives dedicated to 6-3-2 & 6-3-11.  They are good exercises to test your ability to apply these complex rules.
Go to     http://www.romgilbert.us/minims13.htm
and click on missives 1 & 8.

[Kalle]

For 6-3-2-III -> What if A hadnt scored?  Would B still get the ball?  B70 held during A's run.  Is this just one of those rules that in order for A to keep the ball, they would have to accept the enforcement of B's hold from where it was (3-1 would put it at the end of the run though, wouldnt it) and declining the hold kicks in the fact that if there are no accepted penalties on the play, B gets the ball at the illegal touching spot?  Since it is a TD, B's hold cant be enforced, so B gets the ball back because of the Illegal touching?

If A doesn't score, the penalty will (probably) be enforced. B70 held during A's run, so it will be enforced from the end of that run.

The reasoning for declining by rule when there is a TD is that there really is no valid enforcement spot.