Philosophical question

[NorCalMike]

First let me apologize for the long post and rant.

I have always felt that whenever possible when a foul occurs well enough from the play, doesn't involve a safety issue and really didn't effect the play, it is much better to talk to the the player and try to get compliance with the rules than throw the flag. After last night I think my attitude is going to change.

Last night I was WH in the JV game. It was a blowout. During the game my crew and I had talked to several players about hits way off from the play. One player in particular #63 of the home team, had a couple of plays that were borderline. We talked to him and he seemed to calm down until there was about 1:40 left in the fourth quarter.

A63 is the center. On a long pass down the right side, A63 is about 25-30 yards behind the play, he decides to hit B55 who was obviously not in the play. I started moving to towards A63 yelling his number trying to get his attention. He continues to run down the field and doesn't acknowledge me. I finally catch up to him. I advised him that what he did was inappropriate. The problem was I because I was yelling initially, when I caught up to him and began talking to him, I still had my voice raised. On of A's assistant coaches goes ballistic and begins screaming at me. I go over to tell the HC (who asked us before the game to let him know if any of his players were getting out of hand so he could pull them and calm them down.)

While I'm trying to talk to the head coach, the assistant is yelling over the head coach shoulder that I shouldn't yell at their players. I look at him ask him to quiet down so I can speak to the HC. He tells me he won't so I flag him for UNS and ask him to leave the field. I explain to the HC what happened and he is good with it.

So A kicks off from their 25 after assessment of the UNS penalty. R runs the ball back to the K20. K18 throws a cheap shot. We enforce the penalty and get through the last minute and a half.

After the game is over we are standing at the the north end of the field, when a person who is dressed like a home team coach walks up. When I approach I assumed it was some from the game administration who wanted to know about the UNS on the coach. I soon found it is was 63's dad, who was upset that I had yelled at his kid. Of course, once we figured out who it was we asked him to leave.

Before the varsity game, I tell my crew that I am done with trying to talk to kids that make hits off the ball or borderline late hits. I just going to throw the flag and penalize the player.

I am the U during the varsity game. During the first series A64, hits a player 20 yards behind a long run. I flag for UNR. Two plays later A scores. During the ensuing kick off, K7 picks off an R player who is just standing around the pile. BJ and I both flag it. While the kids are moving to the sideline, the BJ hears the some say "Looks like they are going to flag everything. Don't make any late hits."

We did not have any other UNR or late hit calls after the first two in the firs minute of the game.

So what's the point of this long winded post? After last night's JV game, my philosophy on UNR is changed from trying talk to the players the first time to just throwing the flag. I know that it is just one game but by flagging the first two UNR in the Varsity game seemed to create an atmosphere in which the players recognized that they were not going to get away with these cheap shots and the game went much smoother.

[Etref]

Get the UNR every time and early. If you don't you usually wind up with a mess toward the end of the game.

The philosophy of away from the play applies to the borderline hold, borderline low block,etc not UNR or USC

My two cents worth

[HLinNC]

He had two borderline plays that were "talk to's".  Sometimes when you feed them more rope, they'll take more rope.  Perhaps he felt you would continue talking instead of flagging?

[NorCalMike]

He had two borderline plays that were "talk to's".  Sometimes when you feed them more rope, they'll take more rope.  Perhaps he felt you would continue talking instead of flagging?

I agree. I will be giving players anymore rope. I tried being the nice guy and it doesn't seem to work.

[kerryman71]

Yeah, unfortunately it seems that whenever you give anyone an inch they take a mile, kids
and adults alike. 

John

[AlUpstateNY]

First let me apologize for the long post and rant.

I have always felt that whenever possible when a foul occurs well enough from the play, doesn't involve a safety issue and really didn't effect the play, it is much better to talk to the the player and try to get compliance with the rules than throw the flag. After last night I think my attitude is going to change.

For what it's worth, you're instincts sound about right, which doesn't mean they will be 100% correct all the time.  I can't see what you see, and only you can determine if what you see merits a flaf, or a "word to the wise".  For me, there's only ONE word to the wise. 

JV football is more of a "learning level" and that may effect your judgment as to when to talk and when to flag, but if a flag is merited, it's best thrown.  It would be nice if "one size fit all" but that's not reality and usually our best indicator is our instincts (which is why we're paid such big bucks).

The asst. coach, at your varsity game, clearly earned his consequence, which may hopefully be part of his learning experience, whci apparently his HC understood.  Parents are eithewr part of the problem, or part of the solution, but thay's entirely their choice.

[IAUMP]

NorCal,  you stated "I have always felt that whenever possible when a foul occurs well enough from the play, doesn't involve a safety issue.."  My only thought on this is that a hit that is 20+ yards behind the play, really is a safety issue.  Therefore, based on your philosophy you should have penalized 63 for the first illegal hit and then you probably wouldn't have had a problem later.  When coaches say, "let me know if anybody is out of line"  they are normally wanting us to know when a player is close to getting an Unsportsmanlike penalty, not a personal foul.

[VALJ]

Nothing to apologize for on the length of the post, Mike.

A63 is the center. On a long pass down the right side, A63 is about 25-30 yards behind the play, he decides to hit B55 who was obviously not in the play. I started moving to towards A63 yelling his number trying to get his attention. He continues to run down the field and doesn't acknowledge me. I finally catch up to him. I advised him that what he did was inappropriate.

IMHO, a hit on a player who is obviously not in the play is a safety issue.  If B55 has given up, getting blindsided by A63 could do some real damage.  Flagging that as a live ball foul and taking a TD off the board (if the headhunting happens during the action) will tell A63 that what he did was inappropriate.  Plus, when the head coach gets done with him for taking a TD off the board, that will (hopefully) provide enough of a lesson that he'll be smart enough not to do it again.

As far as the assistant coach goes, as Al said, he earned what he did.  In a situation like this, we need to discuss it with the head coach, and if the assistant decides he won't let the boss handle it...  well, that's his own fault.  Grownups need to act like them, especially when the other grownups are already resolving the situation.

[bama_stripes]

NorCal,  you stated "I have always felt that whenever possible when a foul occurs well enough from the play, doesn't involve a safety issue.."  My only thought on this is that a hit that is 20+ yards behind the play, really is a safety issue.

What he said.

Get "safety-issue" fouls 100% of the time, regardless of the time or score.

[theunofficialofficial]

My crew chief has instilled in me this belief: "You can't talk them out of PF." And he is very true.

It's similar to that sideline warning, throw it early and let coaches know you mean business. Flag the players and let them know early that you won't tolerate that type of play.

We had a situation Friday night where we were warned by one HC that they run a sweep and that defenses have been going low on the lead blockers in effort to get the runner easier. First time we saw the sweep B went low. We flagged it and after that never had a problem rest of the game with low blocks.

[NorCalMike]

I have definitely decided to change this week. I will flag these things now. Goes into the no good deed goes unpunished file.

[AlUpstateNY]

You might allow yourself the benefit of giving yourself some "further review" considering your instincts of differentiating between an action that clearly calls for a penalty and an action that may not merit such consequence and the value each may accomplish when dealing with more of an example of immaturity, somewhat more common in sub varsity Interscholastic football, than football played at the Varsity, Collegiate or Professional levels.

Sometimes a minor adjustment of your previous standards can prove more effective, overall, than a wholesale change, removing the benefit of YOUR observation and judgment.  JV football is a learning, and honing level, not only for players but officials and coaches as well.  IMPARTIAL judgment is often the most valuable element we bring to any contest.

[NorCalMike]

Al, your right about not acting to fast. My rant cover just last Friday night because it was fresh in my mind when I wrote. My crew has been talking about this problem for at least half the season. We would talk to players about these hits. What we found is talking hasn't worked. Usually that would stop that individual player from doing it but because the other 21 players on the field weren't talked to they would continue with the late hits.

After flagging to late hits in the opening minute of our second game on Friday, we didn't have any more that night. I know one game doesn't prove my point but it sure was interesting.

We'll see what this week brings.

[VALJ]

After flagging to late hits in the opening minute of our second game on Friday, we didn't have any more that night. I know one game doesn't prove my point but it sure was interesting.

The R on my crew two years ago told us in every pregame that if we had a borderline DBPF early in the game, flag it.  Once we show the kids that we're watching for that, they'll rein it in.  I have to admit - our games were usually pretty clean once we dropped one or two late hit flags.

[AlUpstateNY]

Usually that would stop that individual player from doing it but because the other 21 players on the field weren't talked to they would continue with the late hits.

After flagging to late hits in the opening minute of our second game on Friday, we didn't have any more that night. I know one game doesn't prove my point but it sure was interesting. We'll see what this week brings.

Just a thought, especially at sub-varsity level, but works at varsity as well.  Your Umpire enjoys a unique opportunity to speak "privately" with either/both defenses, whenever he chooses, including sticking his head into their huddle.  Like Las Vegas, what is said in that huddle should stay in that huddle, so words need to be chosen CAREFULLY.  Your Umpire has a lot more leeway, in his opportunity to say specifically what a team may need to hear. 

Not a good idea to single out individual players in those pronouncements, but the message usually applies to more than one player anyway.  Brief, direct and clearly understandable. 

If the players choose to share the context of those discussions with anyone, that's THEIR choice.  When (if)should  asked by someone outside that huddle what the discussion was about, "The fluctuating price of gold on the International Market" is an answer that sends an appropriate message.

[NorCalMike]

Just a thought, especially at sub-varsity level, but works at varsity as well.  Your Umpire enjoys a unique opportunity to speak "privately" with either/both defenses, whenever he chooses, including sticking his head into their huddle.  Like Las Vegas, what is said in that huddle should stay in that huddle, so words need to be chosen CAREFULLY.  Your Umpire has a lot more leeway, in his opportunity to say specifically what a team may need to hear. 

Not a good idea to single out individual players in those pronouncements, but the message usually applies to more than one player anyway.  Brief, direct and clearly understandable. 

If the players choose to share the context of those discussions with anyone, that's THEIR choice.  When (if)should  asked by someone outside that huddle what the discussion was about, "The fluctuating price of gold on the International Market" is an answer that sends an appropriate message.

I agree. I often talk to the defense about things that I would like changed. I also will get a few words with the o-line after the play. This one of the reason I love being the U. I get to great interactions with the plays and almost never have to interact with coaches.

[TampaSteve]

The R on my crew two years ago told us in every pregame that if we had a borderline DBPF early in the game, flag it.  Once we show the kids that we're watching for that, they'll rein it in.  I have to admit - our games were usually pretty clean once we dropped one or two late hit flags.

Ditto.

[NorCalMike]

ValJ and Tampa Steve, two weeks now I have been doing this, works amazingly well

[Wingmanbp]

I agree. I often talk to the defense about things that I would like changed. I also will get a few words with the o-line after the play. This one of the reason I love being the U. I get to great interactions with the plays and almost never have to interact with coaches.

Our U last year had to interact with a coach who asked him "why didn't you catch that first down pass that hit you square in the chest. All you had to do was catch it and fall down and we got it"
He was kidding of course but it was pretty funny.

[NorCalMike]

Ditto.

If it wasn't so dang dangerous. I got blindsided by an outside linebacker a few weeks back. That hurt like heck. It sucks when you don't even see it coming. I am usually credited with at least one tackle each year. 

[James]

The R on my crew two years ago told us in every pregame that if we had a borderline DBPF early in the game, flag it.  Once we show the kids that we're watching for that, they'll rein it in.  I have to admit - our games were usually pretty clean once we dropped one or two late hit flags.

Sometimes I wish I was officiating over there. I had the advantage of a season that goes from April to October, but the concepts of sportsmanship and discipline are often missing here.
The idea that kids (or worse for me adults) will learn from the calling of a foul or change their behavior is rare here. Either it was a bad call because it was against them, or they don't understand/see that they did anything wrong.
Yes there are exceptions, but understanding and respect are things I don't see as much of on the field as you seem to take for granted in the U.S.A.

[yarnnelg]

We always flag them early in St Petersburg. Calms the natives down.

[hefnerjm]

Nothing to apologize for on the length of the post, Mike.



IMHO, a hit on a player who is obviously not in the play is a safety issue.  If B55 has given up, getting blindsided by A63 could do some real damage.  Flagging that as a live ball foul and taking a TD off the board (if the headhunting happens during the action) will tell A63 that what he did was inappropriate.  Plus, when the head coach gets done with him for taking a TD off the board, that will (hopefully) provide enough of a lesson that he'll be smart enough not to do it again.

Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.

         Examples (Rule 2-27-14):           

A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
A player on the ground.
A player obviously out of the play.
A player who receives a blind-side block.
A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
A quarterback any time after a change of possession.

If you have any contact to the head, you might have targeting also.  Gotta catch this 100% of the time.  Any hit on a defenseless player cannot be a "talk to".

I also agree with the other comments that if you flag it early, it becomes much less of an issue late in the game, and defuses any arguments about the officials affecting the game's outcome by flagging something late that should have been called all game.

[AlUpstateNY]

Defenseless player—a player not in position to defend himself.

         Examples (Rule 2-27-14):           

A player in the act of or just after throwing a pass.
A receiver attempting to catch a pass, or one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier.
A kicker in the act of or just after kicking a ball, or during the kick or the return.
A kick returner attempting to catch or recover a kick.
A player on the ground.
A player obviously out of the play.
A player who receives a blind-side block.
A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.
A quarterback any time after a change of possession.

If you have any contact to the head, you might have targeting also.  Gotta catch this 100% of the time.  Any hit on a defenseless player cannot be a "talk to".

The above is NOT an NFHS rule,  and seems somewhat vague and ovrerly broad in it's scope.

Does avoiding contact, otherwise legal, with, "one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier", require a defensive player NOT to try and prevent a "catch" from being interrupted?

What about a "kicker".....pursuing a receiver, or engaging a potential blocker "during the kick or the return" makes him "defensless"? Why give a "kicker" an unearned advantage AFTER he ceases being a kicker and is functioning simply as a "player" in pursuit?

A Kick, that's been muffed, or touched by R (beyond the NZ) can legally be recovered by either K or R (under the NFHS code), why give R free access to the ball, at K's expense?

Why allow a player who ignores his surroundings, while pursuing, or participation in the play, to be exempt from otherwise legal contact (blind-side block).

A QB, who elects to continue participating in play, or in pursuit after a COP is by definintion "a player" and should be equally subject to the responsiblities of any other player.

Suggesting ANY contact with the head, without individual assessment of the circumstances, is somehow a foul is extremely broad and rejects the reality of contact between indivuals colliding, at significant speed, at times being totally unintentional.  Revoming observeable judgment  and following a "One size fits all" determination is a dangerous practice.

[TxSkyBolt]

The above is NOT an NFHS rule,  and seems somewhat vague and ovrerly broad in it's scope.

Does avoiding contact, otherwise legal, with, "one who has completed a catch and has not had time to protect himself or has not clearly become a ball carrier", require a defensive player NOT to try and prevent a "catch" from being interrupted?

What about a "kicker".....pursuing a receiver, or engaging a potential blocker "during the kick or the return" makes him "defensless"? Why give a "kicker" an unearned advantage AFTER he ceases being a kicker and is functioning simply as a "player" in pursuit?

A Kick, that's been muffed, or touched by R (beyond the NZ) can legally be recovered by either K or R (under the NFHS code), why give R free access to the ball, at K's expense?

Why allow a player who ignores his surroundings, while pursuing, or participation in the play, to be exempt from otherwise legal contact (blind-side block).

A QB, who elects to continue participating in play, or in pursuit after a COP is by definintion "a player" and should be equally subject to the responsiblities of any other player.

Suggesting ANY contact with the head, without individual assessment of the circumstances, is somehow a foul is extremely broad and rejects the reality of contact between indivuals colliding, at significant speed, at times being totally unintentional.  Revoming observeable judgment  and following a "One size fits all" determination is a dangerous practice.

Al, those are definitions of "defenseless" players that are afforded protection from hits to the head/neck area. Otherwise legal hits on these players are generally not a foul (the exception might be a player obviously out of the play).