Playoff Distribution

[Welpe]

I think the process to nominate top six crews could be a proverbial blood bath as well. Consider the black box playoff tracker we have now.

[TXPanhandle]

Going to add my 2-cents here as my first posting to this forum.  Until the UIL makes the decision to take the option of coaches picking the chapter and then officials, nothing will change.  There is no reason why the UIL cannot implement a rotating plan that, in advance, announces which chapters will work which semifinal and state final games.  Since there are now 12 state championship games each year the UIL can assign all 12 in advance.  For example, they could easily announce that in 2015 Houston will work the 2A-D2, South Plains 3A-D2, Commerce 4A-D1, etc.  For that year if the chapter has a state championship game then they do not receive a semifinal game.  All semifinal games are worked by the chapters not receiving a state championship game.  Obviously there would be 24 semifinal games so there are plenty to go around.  You could even go as far as guarantee each district a state championship game every year, as well as, if a chapter has a 1A (6-man) state championship game maybe they are also receive one semifinal 11-man game.  Much of this plan could even be implemented starting with the Quarterfinals.  I don't recall it being directly stated but the shame is there are a lot of solid officials/crews sitting at home during the quarterfinals while, at the same time, officials working who should not be because a chapter is attempting to service to many games. 

[TXMike]

Not directing this at you directly because you certainly are not the only one suggesting UIL could assign chapters and I have no idea about your opinions on the UIL but...many guys who have long held beliefs about the UIL's failings want to turn to the UIL to get involved in game assigning.  I don't get it.

And again...what is "fair"?  Why should Commerce, N Texas, Pecan Valley (or Houston, Dallas, San Antonio) be guaranteed any game?  I don't see how any Chapter or any crew should think they have a "right" to any game

[TXPanhandle]

Mike, one point I didn't include.  When I mention the assignment could be done in advance, I'm talking two and three years out, not just one year.  It's not that any chapter "deserves" to be in a game.  However, I can tell you every chapter has officials that does deserve the opportunity to be in such game.  Every chapter has officials that have worked hard to be afforded the chance.  But due to various reasons beyond their control they are not given the chance.  A rotating schedule at least provides such opportunity. 

[940AC]

The elephant in the room on this topic......
Ever wonder how a coach, AD, or supt. seem to favor certain crews for years?
Definitely not all, but there are those out there that make calls and give the "coach, congratulations, if you need a good crew"....speech.

[Coby]

Mike, one point I didn't include.  When I mention the assignment could be done in advance, I'm talking two and three years out, not just one year.  It's not that any chapter "deserves" to be in a game.  However, I can tell you every chapter has officials that does deserve the opportunity to be in such game.  Every chapter has officials that have worked hard to be afforded the chance.  But due to various reasons beyond their control they are not given the chance.  A rotating schedule at least provides such opportunity.

So if Houston broke into 8 TASO chapters with 150 members each would all 8 be in the rotation?  I hope you see the point.  Big Sandy chapter (fictional) has 3 crews that could handle the game out of 20 crews.  Houston has 12 crews that could handle it out of 80 crews.

[Etref]

The elephant in the room on this topic......
Ever wonder how a coach, AD, or supt. seem to favor certain crews for years?
Definitely not all, but there are those out there that make calls and give the "coach, congratulations, if you need a good crew"....speech.

Ya' think!!!!!     

[TXPanhandle]

So if Houston broke into 8 TASO chapters with 150 members each would all 8 be in the rotation?  I hope you see the point.  Big Sandy chapter (fictional) has 3 crews that could handle the game out of 20 crews.  Houston has 12 crews that could handle it out of 80 crews.

The principal point is based on the current structure of TASO.  If a chapter elected to split off into more chapters that's not reasonable. Let's flip it around. What if a smaller chapter elected to tell UIL they are no longer affiliate with TASO. Similar to what was done in basketball. Do you not think UIL would favor that option.

I just think there's some options out there that are reasonable and take it out of the hands of coaches. When the coaches have the ability to chose individual officials that's when it gets dicey. For example, a coach who went to college with an official and hide that fact from the other coach only to request him and his buddies in a State game.

[DallasLJ]

The principal point is based on the current structure of TASO.  If a chapter elected to split off into more chapters that's not reasonable. Let's flip it around. What if a smaller chapter elected to tell UIL they are no longer affiliate with TASO. Similar to what was done in basketball. Do you not think UIL would favor that option.

I just think there's some options out there that are reasonable and take it out of the hands of coaches. When the coaches have the ability to chose individual officials that's when it gets dicey. For example, a coach who went to college with an official and hide that fact from the other coach only to request him and his buddies in a State game.

  Stop manufacturing what ifs.  I do not want the UIL anywhere near the process of assigning football games.  We had this fight -- and they agreed to stay out of football officiating. 

  And so you know -- I have not worked past Round 3.  For the vast majority of the games assigned out of Dallas -- I understand ever assignment.  It is not based on favoritism.  Everyone should look to their own Chapter governance before you start getting the UIL involved.  I put head down and work the games I am assigned to the best of my ability.  While I know I have the skills to work a State Championship Game (at any level), if it happens, it happens.  If it doesn't, it doesn't.

[linesman87]

With the network that the coaches have between themselves, I would say that they talk to each other on a weekly basis and make recomendations to each other on officials and crews and chapters.  These coaches know each other and probably were college roomates or on the same staff at some point in their careers.  If they feel or felt that they got screwed by a crew or the other coach, it probably wouldnot happen a second time.

[TXMike]

  ...........I do not want the UIL anywhere near the process of assigning football games.  We had this fight -- and they agreed to stay out of football officiating. 
.............  Everyone should look to their own Chapter governance before you start getting the UIL involved. 

  Right on!!  Each Chapter needs to get its own houses in order before we start bashing the state or looking to the state to help us out. 

[HoustonRef]

Haters gon hate   

[Progolfer]

OK my first post ever here.  I have been a prt of this for 32 years.  One thing is for sure, smae complaints for 32 years.  We all want to work and that is great.  We all think we are better than we really are or certianly better than the crew who got the game.  It's human nature.  Some guys on this thread have nailed it.  As long as coaches pick the system will never change.  It has been this way for the past 32 years and I will bet it will remain that way for years to come.  Deal with it or go join your local BB chapter where the UIL picks chapters for Regional Tournaments and State Finals.

[copedaddy]

I can't understand why there is so much resistance to the UIL setting up a chapter rotation for playoff games. They do it in every other sport. Football is not "special". Let the coaches pick in the first three rounds. Week four and on is a rotation by chapters predetermined by the UIL. In week 4 there are 44 games. If 4 games are given to each chapter, then 11 chapters are guaranteed four quarter final games. The next week another 11 chapters are given 2 semifinal games. That is almost every chapter in the State has now had a quarter or semi game. The finals have 10 games which go to 10 different chapters which could be a different set up such as its own rotation or lottery system.
Now who gets to call the games is up to the chapters--which is another "hot topic" in and of itself.
If a chapter has two semi games, the next year it will be in the rotation of a quarter final and vise versa. It would not be a great system, but more playoff games would be available to smaller chapters that never get to work past the second or third round. True large chapters get fewer games, but hey go join a smaller chapter.
It is time to take the "sacred cows" out of the system.

[Coby]

copedaddy:  What is the matter with my HUDL system?  Are you afraid of an actual assessment based on talent.  Please explain to me how it is fair that a chapter with 84 people in it have the same shot at a game that a chapter with 900 people in it have?  I am not one of the 10-12 crews in Houston that have a shot at a state championship every year.  Trust me when I say that there is not a soul in Houston that has worked harder over the last 10 years at reshaping the mindset of the chapter then me.  I want to get behind a change movement.  Your plan is not the way.

[copedaddy]

The Hudl system has merits, but only for those individuals who want or can apply that type of time. Do they use that system in other sports to select officials?
I have two championships, an All-Star game and several playoff and championship games at the JuCo level. I have been to the top of the mountain and after 35 years could care less if I get another one. But coming from a small chapter of over 25 years before moving to south Texas, I don't see why the smaller chapters with good crews that can get almost zero exposure, should be limited to almost no playoff games each year. Let the chapters do the Hudl system and select their top crews if they want to. But give all chapters a chance at the big game. Yes Houston will be a big looser in this system, but there would be a lot more big winners.
Fair? Hell no, but it is more equitable to all.

[fencewire]

the hudl idea has issues as well, while I am all for video review, and that is the only way to truly evaluate across the state, your idea as written is unworkable and remarkably exclusionary.  You said that you had never seen a better idea put forward... SHOCKING... it was your idea...

The biggest problem has been danced around and mentioned on another thread, is that as long as coaches have anything to do with the decision and "salesmen" are allowed to interact with them, then there will be issues.  As someone else mentioned, as long as the local chapters of the "salesmen" don't have an issue with the sales techniques used or at least rumored to be used, then there really isn't anything that is going to change.

There is no way that the coaches would relinquish that perceived power that they have without a huge hissy fit, that toothpaste is long out of the tube, drying on the counter, crusty.. probably just dust at this point...

[Etref]

The Hudl system has merits, but only for those individuals who want or can apply that type of time. Do they use that system in other sports to select officials?
I have two championships, an All-Star game and several playoff and championship games at the JuCo level. I have been to the top of the mountain and after 35 years could care less if I get another one. But coming from a small chapter of over 25 years before moving to south Texas, I don't see why the smaller chapters with good crews that can get almost zero exposure, should be limited to almost no playoff games each year. Let the chapters do the Hudl system and select their top crews if they want to. But give all chapters a chance at the big game. Yes Houston will be a big looser in this system, but there would be a lot more big winners.
Fair? HECK no, but it is more equitable to all.

How in the heck is Houston a big loser? They got 4 of the 10 games this year! Each year they get several of the games. Not knocking them but what about Amarillo or El Paso or some of the other chapters? Once the first round is over they are usually out of the mix completely.

[TXPanhandle]

Coby, here is the problem with your Hudl solution.  First, not all coaches will submit film when requested giving us the opportunity to view film.  Second, who’s going to submit the penalty & complaint from the game?  The coach…good luck with that.  The official…then I’ll only submit what I know does not give me a downgrade in the review.   Third, I highly doubt Mike has enough time on his hands to now start reviewing film from 24 different chapters and then anywhere from 15-60 games per chapter each week all to determine a grade to evaluate who ranks as the highest official/crew.  Besides reviewing just the penalties & complaints you would have to include a review of all plays to ensure no missed calls or incorrect calls that are not listed as a complaint. 

As copedaddy stated, having UIL institute a rotating schedule most definitely would not be a perfect system.  I do not accept your statement that Houston having 900 members deserves more than a chapter having 84.  If that was the case then Houston, Dallas & Ft. Worth should be working all playoff games after week 2 and all the other chapters should sit at home.  That’s not right!  In my opinion each chapter has a top 10% just like they have a bottom 10%.  The top 10% in each chapter all work hard and, because of that hard work, deserve the same opportunities as others. 

I respect your defense for your chapter just like you should respect others defense for their chapter and efforts.  It would be interesting see responses if one year the big four did not get a championship game instead a chapter like San Angelo receives two games, Wichita Falls three, etc. 

[clearwall]

So it seems the problem everyone is agreed on is the coaches pick scenario. The coaches are not going to let that go, so how about we find some kind of healthy medium where we still allow the coaches the freedom to pick their crews, but we require a number of qualifiers to that? Something like others have described above.

I really like Cope's suggestion about the 'graduation' process. If an official/crew is selected for rd 1 in a given year, then next year, he/they are available for selection in rd 2. I think this has merit(pun intended) and is a great way to showcase good up-and-coming or not-usually-seen talent from all levels. You prove yourself at every step of the way. It's very similar to how schools go from being a terrible team one season to district champs to area champs to state playoffs in succeeding years. Great idea, Scott.

I still hold by my suggestions in that we find some way to allow a more even distribution of assignments. Of all the available officials/crews that are available for each level of playoff, each chapter is allowed to submit, say, the top 5% of their chapters crews for available selection in a pool(similar to how baseball works). The coach still gets to pick, but it has to be from this pool of crews. Any open slots can be filled with another official in the list(for games with 7 man mech).

Finally, institute a chapter and crew cap per round. This would be dependent on the round because there would be more games to go around and we shouldnt limit a given chapter from working as many games as is logical. Something like 10-15 gms for rd 1, 7-12 rd 2, 5-8 rd 3, etc. These caps would exist for each division, not as a whole. For the crew cap there really should be a limit of 1 game every 3 days. Would anyone disagree that a crew that works Friday night is not as sharp on Saturday as they could be? You can work 2 games a round but it would have to be a Thu/Sat or Fri/Sun deal.

[Coby]

I realize I am preaching to the choir here.  My original journey to refstripes was to look for a place to discuss issues because I felt there were a lack of resources and opportunity out there for people willing to put in the time.  Most of you can probably see a bit of yourself in that mindset.  I get more training and rules help here then anything TASO has ever put out.

I understand where small chapters are coming from.  All you want is your shot.  I have been  in a bigger chapter for a lot of the same issues at the local level.  I just want my shot and a system in place where I can get better.

You are never going to get a rotation system passed the big chapters.  If Big Sandy (my fictional small chapter) has their top 3 crews grade out to a 91 (when compared to all chapters across the state).  Then big chapter H has 12 crews that grade out to a 91 or above.  A rotation system is not the answer.  I promise you that if there is a rotation system based solely on anything besides population size then Houston will just break into 8 smaller chapters just to increase our bingo balls. 

The answer has to involve HUDL and a video resume.  I have been the HUDL Bitc% for Houston for 4 years.  There is not a single school that will not send us film.  I get 40-60 films a week.  Myself and the 5 other crews that I know ask for it the right way always get our film.  When other crews complain 99/100 times they are not asking for the film correctly or consistently.  If you do not have the time to review your plays on a weekly basis and create a playlist then you do not deserve to be in a rotation for quality games.  Here is an analogy.  Most colleges that require a scholarship essay do not read the essay.  It is a way to weed out kids that do not want to put in the time to submit an essay.  The kids that do submit an essay demonstrate that they care about their future.  The same thing with HUDL.  If you put in a playlist atleast I know you are watching film and attempting to get better.

Thanks

Coby "The Future President of Coby is Awesome TASO Chapter"

Welpe will be my Vice President

[copedaddy]

You can still let coaches pick. They would just be told the San Angelo chapter is calling the game, and you have to pick one from there.
And yes big chapters may loose some, they only get 4 quarter final games instead of 11.

[TXMike]

Again.. what inherent "right" does any chapter , large or small, have to get any game.  If coaches pick works for regular season then let it work for playoffs  (and this is coming from someone for whomthe "coaches pick" deal has not been so great). 

[clearwall]

Personal opinion, but I believe they have the 'right' because they are a member of the organization that is TASO. I get it that you dont agree, Mike, and that's fine. All good people can differ in their opinions on certain issues. My only beef is that since everyone has a right, everyone should also be given a fair and equitable shot.

[JasonTX]

I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.