Author Topic: Playoff Distribution  (Read 64112 times)

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Online TxBJ

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Playoff Distribution
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2014, 02:31:45 PM »

Personal opinion, but I believe they have the 'right' because they are a member of the organization that is TASO. I get it that you dont agree, Mike, and that's fine. All good people can differ in their opinions on certain issues. My only beef is that since everyone has a right, everyone should also be given a fair and equitable shot.

Check the TASO membership application. It has always said that acceptance of membership does not guarantee game assignments. And that goes for any games, not just playoff games.

Offline TXPanhandle

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #51 on: December 16, 2014, 02:37:10 PM »
I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.

And I suspect this is going to occur once all games are completed and we reach the January 1st date where coaches may be contacted.....

Offline fencewire

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #52 on: December 16, 2014, 02:55:27 PM »
I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.


Online TxBJ

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Playoff Distribution
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2014, 03:06:30 PM »
Don't forget the "contact period" applies to chapter officers or designated representatives, not individual officials going out on their own.

Offline psv

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2014, 03:24:32 PM »
Ah, nothing like a discussion about who gets what State Championship games to liven up the boards before they die off for the offseason.  Nothing like having 3 different posts of folks saying basically the same thing :)

I have chosen to respond to this post, but my points will be addressing various discussion points from across all 3 threads.

Full disclosure:  I live in a metro area.  I have not been picked to work a state championship game.  Why does my chapter hate me!  :o

There are a myriads of reasons that certain Chapters/Crews get games when others seem to get shut out.  I will list them in no particular order.

1) Perception:  There is a perception among the coaches that the bigger chapters have the "best" crews and call the "biggest" games.  This seems to get "validated" as we get deeper into the playoffs were the smaller chapters seem to get less games as we go along.  Once you get to the state championship game, coaches perceive that the only larger chapters can provide a crew that can appropriately handle the game.

2) The "bigness" of the game itself:  For the coaches/players - this is their biggest game of the year.  They try to reduce the amount things they have to worry about so they go with officials from bigger chapters because of the above stated perception.  The last thing they want to chance is getting a "rogue" crew.

3) Teams represented.  As we get deeper into the playoffs, the teams that remain tend to be from bigger areas at the higher classifications.  At the lower classifications, they have started to move to crews from the larger metro areas because of the perception of the bigness of the game.  So now these smaller schools become more familiar and more comfortable with crews from the larger areas.

4) Coaches talk.  Coaches talk.  They start asking who is good and they are asking what chapters are good and what guys are good from those chapters.  They trust each other, so when a lower classification coach make ask his friend who is a coordinator at a higher classification, they get the chapters those guys are familiar with. 

Taking all of these items, each one is known to be a "truth" but each on is nebulous in and of itself.  I highly doubt the R's calling coaches saying "pick me, pick me" (although I am sure that does happen, I dont think it happens for State Championship games). 

There are two separate "issues" at discussion here.  First is why do small chapters get shut out.  Second is why does it seem to be the same crews getting these games.

Why is it the same crew (specifically speaking of the Tyler crew)?  Because they are a known quantity.  I believe they were specifically requested (is that correct)?  The coaches know what they get with this crew.  Not that they are the best, but just that there is some consistency.  That plays to #2 above.  One less thing the coaches have to worry about.   This goes for all coaches, which is why the feel "comfortable" using the bigger chapters and why the smaller ones get shut out.

Why do the smaller chapters get shut out from teams used to using smaller chapters during the regular season?  Now that one, is a mystery to me.  I mean, from 2A to 4A, there are 11 of 12 schools (I think, might be 10 of 12) that do NOT use the big chapters for their regular season.  Yet in the post season, they use other chapters instead of their home chapters.  Certainly one of these crews could have been selected.  Is that the coaches fault?  Why wouldnt it be?  So, this one, i dont know.  But the lower classification games would seem where the smaller chapters would get their shot because of familiarity of the coaches with smaller chapters.  That they chose not to go that route, seems odd.  Or not.

So, in order to "fix" it  ALL of the above has to be taken into consideration.  I think there is just too much inertia unless someone passes a law.  And I think we can agree that when govt gets involved, things get messed up even more.

Remember, the trees were all kept equal by hatchet, ax and saw.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 03:30:57 PM by psv »

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2014, 03:40:33 PM »
Well put PSV.

Offline Coby

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #56 on: December 16, 2014, 04:43:47 PM »
I think if someone were to contact the two coaches to find out how they arrived at using a particular chapter there would be a big cat let out of a bag.

This is my post of the year nomination

We have no data on anything in this organization.  Heaven Forbid we ever send out a survey to any of the coaches on why they choose the crews they choose, what characteristics they are looking for in a crew, what chapter perceptions are out there etc etc etc.  We have no data on anything.  Do we look at our zebra ware foul report data as a whole?  What chapters call the fewest penalties?  How can we conduct training without data?  I think it is really funny that some crews think they need to dress alike and wear sports coats to games.  Why?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #57 on: December 16, 2014, 05:14:07 PM »
Why is it that the NFHS board isn't on fire like the Texas board is over playoffs?  deadhorse:

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #58 on: December 16, 2014, 08:12:11 PM »
HoustonRef =  troll.   Please ban. 

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #59 on: December 16, 2014, 09:17:27 PM »
HoustonRef =  troll.   Please ban.
I posted in this thread also, Cibolo Steele catch in the end zone for touchdown. You might want to go ask to ban me in that one also.

Offline joelw83

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #60 on: December 17, 2014, 12:20:41 PM »
I have been fortunate to have been assigned one (old) 5A state championship game, and I had a good run where I worked (old) 5A and 4A semi-final games six years in a row.  Because of chapter by-laws, I had to move to a different crew twice in a 10 year period, or I would have had 2 additional state championship games.  Now as an R with my own crew for the last three years, I have not had that kind of run.  That's just the way it goes.  You never know how you may get a game.  One year we got one because a retired coach that knew the R had a son going to one of the schools.  He recomended us to the head coach.  The other school had an AD that has used us at a school he previously worked at.  You do a good job in a high profile game and your name gets around.

So....for the Tyler crew.  They got the big games, and they have worked big games in the past. (see the Tyler website)  Congrats.  If they weren't any good, I don't think they would be working as many as they have, year after year. 

Should it be assigned by TASO or UIL?  I don't think so.  More administration.

Just be happy with the game you got.

Offline first_year_guy

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #61 on: December 17, 2014, 07:47:51 PM »
A. Be happy with the game you get
B. get on a crew that is in position to get the games you desire

Offline clearwall

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2014, 12:07:47 PM »
Check the TASO membership application. It has always said that acceptance of membership does not guarantee game assignments. And that goes for any games, not just playoff games.

You're talking about individuals. Im talking about CHAPTERS. I believe that each individual chapter does have the right, based on it's membership in TASO, to get at least 1 Qtr or Finals game once every 3-4 years.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2014, 12:39:57 PM »
That is a pretty Socialistic viewpoint. I believe it free-market capitalism. You don't have a right to it you have to earn it.   How would you feel if they said every school have a right to be in the championship game every so often so it didn't matter about your record during the season the championship teams would be decided ahead of time.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2014, 01:17:33 PM »
I believe that each individual chapter does have the right, based on it's membership in TASO, to get at least 1 Qtr or Finals game once every 3-4 years.
That's just like the "trophy for everyone" mentality.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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Offline psv

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2014, 02:14:23 PM »
You know, I go back to the point I made earlier in relation to how many games these smaller chapters get:

11 of the 12 teams from 2A - 4A are *NOT* covered by the HOU/DAL/FW/AUS/SAT chapters (it might be 10 of 12).  Yet, when you see the chapters/crews that works these games in the playoffs and State Championships, many times they (the schools) are choosing these larger chapters over the smaller ones.



Offline JasonTX

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2014, 03:30:35 PM »
You know, I go back to the point I made earlier in relation to how many games these smaller chapters get:

11 of the 12 teams from 2A - 4A are *NOT* covered by the HOU/DAL/FW/AUS/SAT chapters (it might be 10 of 12).  Yet, when you see the chapters/crews that works these games in the playoffs and State Championships, many times they (the schools) are choosing these larger chapters over the smaller ones.

It's obvious they are leaving the smaller chapters out of the mix because they don't want the best officials.  I'm kidding.  For the most part we have a good number of schools that are in the championships pretty consistently each year or so.  It's only natural for them to continue to use the same chapters.  Then you get a new team in and I'm sure they talk to the coach who was there last year on who they used.  This is how you get the repeat crews and chapters each year.  Unless those guys just totally burn a bridge with those schools, the other chapters will not get the chance.  The other side of that is, I have heard from some schools that tell me that they will never use some of those big chapters.  Unfortunately none of those schools have gotten that far, but if the tide turns we could just see the conversation be just the opposite.  "It's no fair, us big chapters never do get any of the games.  Why do only the smaller chapters keep getting the games."  I come from a small chapter for the record.  All I can say is leave a positive impression on every school you work regardless if they are a school you cover or a visiting school.  Jr. High thru Varsity.  Make it your point that they remember your name.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2014, 07:55:17 PM »
It's obvious they are leaving the smaller chapters out of the mix because they don't want the best officials.  I'm kidding.  For the most part we have a good number of schools that are in the championships pretty consistently each year or so.  It's only natural for them to continue to use the same chapters.  Then you get a new team in and I'm sure they talk to the coach who was there last year on who they used.  This is how you get the repeat crews and chapters each year.  Unless those guys just totally burn a bridge with those schools, the other chapters will not get the chance.  The other side of that is, I have heard from some schools that tell me that they will never use some of those big chapters.  Unfortunately none of those schools have gotten that far, but if the tide turns we could just see the conversation be just the opposite.  "It's no fair, us big chapters never do get any of the games.  Why do only the smaller chapters keep getting the games."  I come from a small chapter for the record.  All I can say is leave a positive impression on every school you work regardless if they are a school you cover or a visiting school.  Jr. High thru Varsity.  Make it your point that they remember your name.

 tiphat: tiphat: tiphat:

Offline blindref757

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2014, 11:38:54 AM »
That is a pretty Socialistic viewpoint. I believe it free-market capitalism. You don't have a right to it you have to earn it.   How would you feel if they said every school have a right to be in the championship game every so often so it didn't matter about your record during the season the championship teams would be decided ahead of time.

You are not advocating free market capitalism.  When the coaches are in the selection process, it is about networking.  The coach from Big Bend doesn't know Dallas chapter guys...so he calls his college buddy who coaches in Mesquite and asks him who he should use.  Now...the guy making the selection is on a blind date.  That isn't free market...it is cronyism.

I don't necessarily know how to fix it in a state that is this large other than having a neutral chapter rank their crews and send some of their best...but don't pee on my leg and tell me it is raining.  I do know this.  There are a lot of great officials sitting at home this weekend...and they are WAY better than what I've seen on TV.  If this were a free market game...these 65 year old/300 pound guys would not be in Dallas.  In a state with 10,000+ active football officials, You can stay in the top 10% and still give a lot of guys the honor of working a state final.  Rotation amongst men and chapters would not collapse the system.  Sharing is Caring!

Offline TXMike

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2014, 12:23:17 PM »
Free market means people who are buying the service can buy who they want.  I am in a company based in Texas.  We bought a building in another state.  I need a vendor in that state to do a certain service at that building.  I don't have to use the company "who's turn it is."  I checked my contacts in the state, did some research and picked the vendor myself.  That is the free market

Offline psv

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #70 on: December 21, 2014, 08:50:30 AM »
 deadhorse:

Again, though, why is coach in Fort Bend calling his buddy in Dallas looking for a crew.  What is wrong with the crews that he is familiar with that normally work his games?

That is the point.  These smaller schools go looking for the bigger chapters in the playoffs, especially as they get deeper.  I am not dumb to believe that there is no soliciting going on, but the coaches are the ones that go looking for the larger chapters in most cases.

I dont know why that is, but that is what they do.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Playoff Distribution
« Reply #71 on: December 21, 2014, 05:27:16 PM »
This thread has run its course.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
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