Author Topic: Championship Games  (Read 68614 times)

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Offline TexDoc

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #75 on: December 17, 2015, 01:30:09 PM »
From the UIL Constitution and Contest Rules, I present Rule 1204.  This is what governs officials who work UIL member games.  Read the first sentence. 

"AGREEMENT. All officials must be satisfactory to both parties and agreed upon in advance.
However, beginning a game with an official constitutes agreement"

This is where coaches are getting their "right" to pick officials. 

What's interesting is that no where in this document is there reference to TASO or Texas Association of Sports Officials.  It does say we all have to registered with the UIL.  I'm not quite certain this is the most current revision.

http://www.uiltexas.org/files/constitution/uil-ccr-section-1204.pdf
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 01:33:24 PM by TexDoc »

Offline Welpe

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #76 on: December 17, 2015, 02:14:24 PM »
This discussion makes me oddly homesick. Instead of complaining about crews working multiple state finals, we just complain about individually assigned officials doing so here in CA.  ;D

Offline Etref

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #77 on: December 17, 2015, 02:18:41 PM »
Like I stated earlier
No matter how you do it someone will get butt hurt!!!!!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline copedaddy

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #78 on: December 17, 2015, 04:08:17 PM »
Do coaches get to pick or agree on officials in other sports? The UIL picks chapters to work different level playoffs and the chapters choose who gets to go. When I worked a regional wrestling tournament, the coaches did not get to pick which ref was on the mat with his kid. Why should football be any different than any other UIL sport?
Yes I know football is king, was born and raised here, but just because it always has been don't make it right.

Online DallasLJ

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #79 on: December 17, 2015, 06:09:24 PM »
1204 applies to all sports -- not just to football.  Having said that - there has been an evolution over my 24 years of what it means to "agree" to the officials.

  When I started in Dallas we did not have crews -- and some coaches, not all, submitted a "preferred" and/or "scratch" list. This is how a coach exercised his "right" to agree on officials.  The Assignment Committee then went to work to build schedules and sent them out by the summer.  A coach could still exercise a right to scratch an official -- and he would be replaced.  It was not big deal.  Come playoffs, though, the Assignment Committee would make all the assignments (again with the right to scratch a guy).  This lead to a lot of sour grapes because the same group of officials got all the "good" regular season games and got all the deep playoff games.

  So, then we come along with crews.  We form them different than others, but crews nonetheless.  And we then agreed to allow the coaches to pick the crews for their games (with some restrictions) -- this essentially eliminated the scratch list.  In fact, part of our agreement with the schools is that they have to take a crew as a whole -- they can't just the HL from a crew.  Nor can they scratch a crew from week 8 if they did not like a call by the same crew is week 3.  So, now come playoff time, if they have no preference, the Board still assigns the officials (not always by crew, bot often).  But if the coaches request a crew --they get to work.  I don't have a problem with that. It takes the politics out of the assignment.  I have never worked beyond the 3rd round -- and my crew has been both assigned and requested in the playoffs.  The requests come from out of town schools who know a Dallas area coach who gives a recommendation.  Some crews get "picked" by reputation, or having worked prior games with the same teams from out of the area. Not sure a see a problem with 2 coaches agreeing to use a particular crew from Tyler or FW or where ever. 

  Now, TASO might want to consider a policy (have to be at the TASO level not the chapter level) that in the best interests of officiating limits an official (or crew of officials) to working 1 state championship game per year (or every three years), and if such official is requested by multiple teams, that the first teams that request the official(s) gets him.

Offline Magician

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #80 on: December 17, 2015, 11:35:44 PM »
I thought we had a bad system in Indiana, but this discussion is making me realize yours is much worse. Coaches have a lot of say in which crews work the tournament, but it's much more indirect. With as many crews as you have, there have to be at least 10 crews qualified to work a state final each year. No crew should work more than one.

Our system has each crew getting a score based on several criteria. Half of the score is based on several factors the crew has some control over: meeting attendance, years of experience, tournament experience, test score, games worked. The other half is based on a coach vote (the indirect part). The coaches in a particular game have no say over the crew they get, but their collective vote is a major criteria where crews are ranked. Every school can vote for every crew so there are situations where one crew will get 80-100 votes while most crews get 20-35 votes. The extra votes are generally positive so they have a huge impact. The ranking then helps the commissioner at the IHSAA assign crews to games. It is a one-man selection committee.

We do have an observer program that started about 5 years ago, but there is still some uncertainty to their role in the process. They get the equivalent to 1 coach vote and their feedback may play a role when the commissioner is trying to decide between two closely ranked crews.

The other part that I think may be good for you to consider. The tournament is 6 rounds and the last 4 rounds must have at least half the crews being "new" crews. New is defined as a crew that hasn't worked a state final. That is based on the referee. If there are 3-4 guys who have worked a state final, but the referee wasn't the white hat on the crew at the time, they are considered a "new" crew. This does help to prevent all state final crews from being repeats. A crew can't work a round until they have worked the previous round in a previous year. For example, even if a crew gets a very high ranking, they may not work a semi-final or final if they have never worked past the 3rd round any previous season.

Once a crew works a state final, they can't work further than a 3rd round game the following season. They could one further round each year returning to the final no earlier than 4 years later.

Other than the importance of the coach vote in the ranking, the logistics of the system do help get some new blood each year in the finals. For the most part the crews working the finals are decent crews. They aren't necessarily better than crews getting only 1 or 2 rounds, but they have the right mix of factors to advance.

Your system of having chapters identify top crews (# should be based on size of chapter) and those chapters assigning the early rounds makes sense. But don't let the coaches have a say in the specific crews. Then for the final rounds (semi-final/final), submit them to the state and let them assign again with no approval from the coaches. Then put criteria in place that crews can't return to the semi-finals/finals any earlier than 3-5 years since their last appearance.

Ultimately no system is perfect. I have friends in the NFL who complain about their system. Whatever your system is you know what it is going in. Control the things you can control and let everything fall where they may. If you don't enjoy working the games you get then maybe you don't enjoy this as much as you think.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #81 on: December 18, 2015, 06:44:28 AM »
There are always going to be people who are willing to do anything and everything they can to get what they want.  Our organization is too big to evaluate everyone and we are too locked into "the way we've always done it".  State championship selections will not change in my lifetime.

Since our chapter put in HUDL and started doing evaluations, nothing has changed.  The same crews get the same games because the coaches are allowed to cherry pick the crews.  Coaches are creatures of habit and very risk averse when it comes to officials.  They would rather have a bad crew that they know than one who might be better that they don't know.

If you want to work a state final, you need to get on the crew of a white hat who is already getting them.  Building a crew from the ground up is a 20 year process...and even then there are no guarantees.

Offline TXMike

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Re: Championship Games
« Reply #82 on: December 18, 2015, 08:28:45 AM »
  Coaches are creatures of habit and very risk averse when it comes to officials.  They would rather have a bad crew that they know than one who might be better that they don't know.
  I think that pretty much sums up the basic issue.  I doubt if we handed them a list at the picks that had every crew ranked, they would even refer to it unless somehow they were picking so low they were going to be forced to take a crew of unknowns.