Brady Did It-Deflategate

[Johnponz]

No one is really talking about it anymore because of America's short attention span.  However, it appears that Brady was involved in coordinating the deflation of the footballs.  This is from the appeal hearing currently happening.

Still to be determined is whether or not the NFL followed "due process."

[AlUpstateNY]

Does anybody still care, and more importantly, "did it ever matter".  Remember, any football going into an NFL game passes through the hands of 2 game officials; the Wing official given the ball by the ballboy, and the Umpire who eventually spots it.

I wouldn't expect either of them to be able to tell the exact pressure of each ball they handle, but I have no doubt they wouldn't have been able to detect a "problem" ball and reject it. 

[Johnponz]

The point is that it looks like Brady purposely coordinated the breaking of rules, thus he cheated.  I am not saying the officials should have noticed the fact.  Just pointing out that with all of the protests of the team's ownership and coach, it now looks like Brady/the team cheated. 

It says something about Brady's character/ethics that he was willing to go through all of the steps that he apparently did just to gain a minuscule advantage.  In my mind it taints all of his other accomplishments.

You are correct that no one cares now, but at the time it was a major story.  I just believe the record should be set straight, and everyone realize that Brady apparently purposely cheated.

PS I hope this is not considered "getting personal."  However Tom Brady is a major public figure, and deflategate was a major national news story so I hope it is okay to talk about it in this matter.

[Rulesman]

...it appears that Brady was involved in coordinating the deflation of the footballs.  This is from the appeal hearing currently happening.

And you have the facts to back up the allegation?

[bossman72]

I think this should be moved to the NFL section

[Johnponz]

Here are 2 stories on the topic.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/04/us/nfl-deflategate-appeal/index.html

And

http://www.huewire.com/miscellaneous/nfl-s-tom-brady-suspension-appeal-reportedly-goes-well-for-league/111744/

I posted it in general discussion because it is not really officiating related but rather a general sports topic.

[AlUpstateNY]

The point is that it looks like Brady purposely coordinated the breaking of rules, thus he cheated.  I am not saying the officials should have noticed the fact.  Just pointing out that with all of the protests of the team's ownership and coach, it now looks like Brady/the team cheated. 

It says something about Brady's character/ethics that he was willing to go through all of the steps that he apparently did just to gain a minuscule advantage.  In my mind it taints all of his other accomplishments.

You are correct that no one cares now, but at the time it was a major story.  I just believe the record should be set straight, and everyone realize that Brady apparently purposely cheated.

PS I hope this is not considered "getting personal."  However Tom Brady is a major public figure, and deflategate was a major national news story so I hope it is okay to talk about it in this matter.

John, you DON"T KNOW Tom Brady had ANYTHING to do with the pressure in those balls, and it sounds like your conclusion that "thus he cheated" is based on pure speculation and what you've read in the tabloids.

I had no expectation that the game officials should have "noticed the fact", other than to suggest that if "the fact" was so obvious that the air pressure would make a difference and create an unfair advantage, they would have damn sure done something about it.  The fact that they didn't suggests the differences were negligible, and just maybe this whole "scandal" is "much ado about nothing".

Setting the record straight is always a good idea, but you suggesting, "EVERYONE realize that Brady apparently purposely cheated." is a ridiculous exaggeration.  If Brady (himself) did what you believe he did, he should be disciplined, but ONLY when his accusers PROVE he did, not speculate, surmise, guess because it's what they might be likely to do or just imagine.  What does the "protests of the Team's management", or anyone else's previous conduct have to do with this allegation?

Tom Brady is a public figure, and sadly like other successful sports public figures who have stayed out of trouble, he has become a prime target for the "Investigative Sports Reporters" of ESPN, Sports Illustrated, & others to find something dirty they can manufacture a scandal around.

Perhaps the one thing worse than 24/7 news reporting, 24/7 Sports Reporting.

[TXMike]

No one is really talking about it anymore because of America's short attention span.  However, it appears that Brady was involved in coordinating the deflation of the footballs.  This is from the appeal hearing currently happening.

Still to be determined is whether or not the NFL followed "due process."

same reason we don't talk about OJ any more.  We all know he did it despite the jury

[Johnponz]

Al,

There is really no reason to accuse me of not doing my research.  It is true that I have no first hand knowledge.  However,  I read from a couple of sources, one of which was CNN (hardly a tabloid) that the federal judges who were trying the case based on their questions were indicating that they believed Brady was involved.  One of them said that the story of why he destroyed his cell phone made no sense.  Another one said that the NFL's case was compelling (maybe I am paraphrasing here).  Based on these accounts I reached my conclusions based on reasoned consideration.  If you come to another conclusion that is fine.  However, I have every right to post my opinion.  I believe that it is a little bit of a shame that you have to use such a hostile tone to me with regard to my opinion.  We can disagree but do not have to be disagreeable

[Johnponz]

Also if you read my post I did not say anything definitive.  I used words like it appears and it looks like.  You turned that into me saying that I KNOW something.

[AlUpstateNY]

John, I never accused you of not doing your research, nor do I question your right to develop and/or announce your opinion.  Forgive me but, "The point is that it looks like Brady purposely coordinated the breaking of rules, thus he cheated." seems a little bit more like a direct accusation, than an opinion.

You have every right to conclude, "It says something about Brady's character/ethics that he was willing to go through all of the steps that he apparently did just to gain a minuscule advantage.  In my mind it taints all of his other accomplishments.", but all that stops short of being anything more than your "opinion", considered and researched but still shy of proven, yet pretty well concluded.

Sorry if you considered my tone "hostile", I was simply challenging your assessment and opinion, which seems purely subjective, yet includes a direct accusation of "cheating", which to me, seems somewhat excessively harsh and damning.  If not a personal accusation, what would you consider "the tone" of labeling someone, especially a professional athlete, a "Cheater".

For the record, this wouldn't be the first time CNN has blown a story out of proportion to advance the interests of CNN.  Today journalism too often isn't quite what it's supposed to be, or sadly once was.

[HLinNC]

I'm no Brady or Patriots fan and the organization has a reputation that may or may not be deserved but I fail to see how there is anything new coming out of a Federal appeals hearing.  Any earth shattering revelations should have been born out at the District level.  This is all arguments of law now.

[Ralph Damren]

I'm no Brady or Patriots fan and the organization has a reputation that may or may not be deserved but I fail to see how there is anything new coming out of a Federal appeals hearing.  Any earth shattering revelations should have been born out at the District level.  This is all arguments of law now.

I'm both a Brady and Patriots fan. I'm currently more interested in Red Sox spring training than this. I breathed a sigh of relief when word arrived that their equipment truck arrived safely at Ft. Myers, Florida. I breathed a sigh of disinterest when word arrived about Brady's upcoming day in court. I breathed a sigh of confusion when my wife thought tires were flat with temps below the donut in our frozen tundra. My current worries.......

   
SOX ROAD OPENER IN CLEVELAND..ONLY TRIP THIS YEAR...WILL BIG PAPI GET STUFF???

WILL THE MUD DRY BEFORE MY FIRST BASEBALL GAME??

WILL BRADY TAKE HIS CASE ALL THE WAY TO THE BIGGEST COURT IN THE LAND??

IF THEY ARE STILL PLAYING A JUSTICE SHORT, WHAT'S THE TIE BREAKER IF 4-4???

IS CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS A JETS FAN?

[hefnerjm]

same reason we don't talk about OJ any more.  We all know he did it despite the jury

Dont look now:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/04/us/oj-simpson-property-knife/

[Bwest]

Al,

There is really no reason to accuse me of not doing my research.  It is true that I have no first hand knowledge.  However,  I read from a couple of sources, one of which was CNN (hardly a tabloid) that the federal judges who were trying the case based on their questions were indicating that they believed Brady was involved.  One of them said that the story of why he destroyed his cell phone made no sense.  Another one said that the NFL's case was compelling (maybe I am paraphrasing here).  Based on these accounts I reached my conclusions based on reasoned consideration.  If you come to another conclusion that is fine.  However, I have every right to post my opinion.  I believe that it is a little bit of a shame that you have to use such a hostile tone to me with regard to my opinion.  We can disagree but do not have to be disagreeable

These judges have not yet ruled, and if you are attempting to discern their actual opinion from oral arguments you are making a grave mistake. The one federal judge who HAS ruled did not think the evidence was compelling.

Many scientific outlets have posted study after study since this broke indicating that the balls air pressure was entirely within legal range based on temperature at the time of measurement. The NFL itself said it would study the ball pressure issue by randomly testing balls in cold weather games last year and release the results. Well the season is over, where are the results? You have to imagine that if the results helped their argument we'd have all heard about it by now.

[Ralph Damren]

My semi-scientific study (if you live north of the "frost line" you can play,too ) :

Nights of below the donut in Maine have hopefully gone, but we still have some chilly morns.

I can push a button on my big scary SUV Jeep and see the PSI of my tires.

Prior to a morning blastoff, the readings are 34-35 PSI.

At noontime, when I return to said vehicle on a quest to gnaw on the carcass of a mutilated mammal, the PSI readings are 37-38.


Verdict : Brady innocent =  ..how many more ....

[DallasLJ]

My semi-scientific study (if you live north of the "frost line" you can play,too ) :

Nights of below the donut in Maine have hopefully gone, but we still have some chilly morns.

I can push a button on my big scary SUV Jeep and see the PSI of my tires.

Prior to a morning blastoff, the readings are 34-35 PSI.

At noontime, when I return to said vehicle on a quest to gnaw on the carcass of a mutilated mammal, the PSI readings are 37-38.


Verdict : Brady innocent =  ..how many more ....

  Still does not explain (1) disparity in PSI in Pats balls v Colts balls and (2) Brady's failure to cooperate in investigation and negative inferences allowed to be created by his destruction of phone.  Based on (2) alone I believe the Commish was well within his rights under the CBA to suspend Mr. Brady. 

[AlUpstateNY]

  Still does not explain (1) disparity in PSI in Pats balls v Colts balls and (2) Brady's failure to cooperate in investigation and negative inferences allowed to be created by his destruction of phone.  Based on (2) alone I believe the Commish was well within his rights under the CBA to suspend Mr. Brady.

As previously stated, you are completely entitled to form whatever conclusion you choose, just like everybody else.

As to your "evidence theories"; (1) How does the disparity in PSI between IND. & NE balls point directly to Mr. Brady? (2) Who knows what else, which may have been embarrassing in any number of ways, available on Brady's cell phone.  If so, would anyone in their right mind trust the NFL and anyone else who may have gotten access to that information (pictures) to keep it confidential? 

[DallasLJ]

As previously stated, you are completely entitled to form whatever conclusion you choose, just like everybody else.

As to your "evidence theories"; (1) How does the disparity in PSI between IND. & NE balls point directly to Mr. Brady? (2) Who knows what else, which may have been embarrassing in any number of ways, available on Brady's cell phone.  If so, would anyone in their right mind trust the NFL and anyone else who may have gotten access to that information (pictures) to keep it confidential?

  So, if the cold weather had been the cause, you would have thought that one of more the the Colt balls would also have been below the PSI threshold.  None of them were, they will all still legal -- and none of the Pat balls were.  This suggests a reasonable inference to be drawn (yes, I am an attorney) that human intervention was involved.  As far as the phone -- the NFL never asked for the phone to be turned over.  Instead, during the meeting with the investigators and Brady and his attorney, the league investigators asked to sit, right there in the room, the Brady and his lawyer, and go through only the texts and emails with team officials.  They were not asking to take the phone with them or to search for other things.  And, instead of informing them that the phone had been destroyed, Brady and his lawyer simply said No, we refused to cooperate with you.  Only later did Brady "confess" that the phone had been destroyed.  That again allows for a reasonable inference to be drawn that he had something to hide, and failed to cooperate -- which under the CBA gives the Commish the authority to suspend. Just my humble opinion. 

[AlUpstateNY]

  So, if the cold weather had been the cause, you would have thought that one of more the the Colt balls would also have been below the PSI threshold.  None of them were, they will all still legal -- and none of the Pat balls were.  This suggests a reasonable inference to be drawn (yes, I am an attorney) that human intervention was involved. 

Not being an attorney, I defer to your experience and expertise.  However, the concern that "human intervention" may have been involved, although a reasonable possibility, without additional specific evidence to support Mr. Brady's direct culpability, doesn't seem to support a specific accusation.

As for the phone, considering Mr. Brady's status as a "public figure" the risk of allowing plaintiff attorneys and/or League personnel to rummage through his PERSONAL "smartphone" opening the potential for "leaking" of potentially embarrassing information contained within, seems prohibitively high.  Considering the potential for subsequent and additional Court proceedings and possible decisions REQUIRING disclosure, preemptively, and permanently destroying the device seems a prudent measure to eliminate such a potential development.

Paraphrasing some legal advice I've heard, "Never write/sign what you can verbally agree to, never speak what you can nod to, never nod to what you can confirm with a glance", and as some wise scholar advised, "It is often wiser to beg forgiveness, than seek permission".

 

[DallasLJ]

 I understand what you are saying -- the problem is that this is an employment issue and not a criminal issue. So, the moment he destroyed his phone and withheld the phone from the league and "failed to cooperate" he subjected himself, not to criminal exposure, but to an "adverse employment" decision.  If a league official had done that -- he would have been fired.  Not gone to jail  -but fired.  There is language in the NFL owners agreements that personnel "must" cooperate with the league.  I believe there is a similar provision in the CBA.  Once Brady failed to cooperate, for whatever reason and by any method, he subjected himself to punishment by the league -- in this case a 4 game suspension.  I don't care if he did it or not, or his fingerprints are on it our not (I do, but not for this purpose), once he failed to cooperate, he gets what he gets.

  As for the phone itself, and any private information, again, the league never asked him to give it his phone.  They said, let us sit together, side by side, and read your emails and texts only between you and other Pat personnel.  They did not want to see, read, copy, etc his photos, contacts, other personal emails or texts.  Once he refused to do that -- he failed to cooperate.  Again, not a criminal offense like not agreeing to a search of your car or house without a warrant.  But a violation of his employer's rules and procedures.  There is no entitlement to play in the league.

  And, yes, I think it makes a difference. As an official (25 years), we all know that there are two things an two things only that we all check every game at the HS Varsity, College and Pro level.  One if the chains to make sure they are 10 yards. Two, the balls to make sure they are within the prescribed PSI.  I my humble opinion, you screw with either of those two things, I would throw the book at you.  If I discovered that a home team chain gain had adjusted the chain by a few inches after I checked in pre-game, they would be fired from the game, ejected from the field and the local AD would be notified to take appropriate action and I would never allow him/her to work the chains at another game I officiated.  This is not an "equipment violation" as I have heard some suggest -- this was not failing to play with a mouthpiece, or a thigh pad.  This was the ball.

[riffraft]

I understand what you are saying -- the problem is that this is an employment issue and not a criminal issue. So, the moment he destroyed his phone and withheld the phone from the league and "failed to cooperate" he subjected himself, not to criminal exposure, but to an "adverse employment" decision.  If a league official had done that -- he would have been fired.  Not gone to jail  -but fired.  There is language in the NFL owners agreements that personnel "must" cooperate with the league.  I believe there is a similar provision in the CBA.  Once Brady failed to cooperate, for whatever reason and by any method, he subjected himself to punishment by the league -- in this case a 4 game suspension.  I don't care if he did it or not, or his fingerprints are on it our not (I do, but not for this purpose), once he failed to cooperate, he gets what he gets.

  As for the phone itself, and any private information, again, the league never asked him to give it his phone.  They said, let us sit together, side by side, and read your emails and texts only between you and other Pat personnel.  They did not want to see, read, copy, etc his photos, contacts, other personal emails or texts.  Once he refused to do that -- he failed to cooperate.  Again, not a criminal offense like not agreeing to a search of your car or house without a warrant.  But a violation of his employer's rules and procedures.  There is no entitlement to play in the league.

  And, yes, I think it makes a difference. As an official (25 years), we all know that there are two things an two things only that we all check every game at the HS Varsity, College and Pro level.  One if the chains to make sure they are 10 yards. Two, the balls to make sure they are within the prescribed PSI.  I my humble opinion, you screw with either of those two things, I would throw the book at you.  If I discovered that a home team chain gain had adjusted the chain by a few inches after I checked in pre-game, they would be fired from the game, ejected from the field and the local AD would be notified to take appropriate action and I would never allow him/her to work the chains at another game I officiated.  This is not an "equipment violation" as I have heard some suggest -- this was not failing to play with a mouthpiece, or a thigh pad.  This was the ball.

This is the issue that the defenders of Brady don't seem to understand. He is being punished for failing to cooperate with the investigation, not with deflating the balls. My guess is if he had given full cooperation, they could not have proven that he had anything to do with the deflation and this would have been over with, but he chose not to and thus should be punished because he agreed to cooperate as entry to playing in the league

[Bwest]

I don't mean to be difficult, but many of the facts being cited in this thread are not correct. The Wells report stated that Brady fully cooperated (of course, that is just Ted Wells' opinion, and you are free to draw your own).

In addition, only 4 of the Colts balls had their PSI measured (Compared to 12 Patriots balls, the officials ran out of time measuring the Colts balls). Of those 4, 3 registered below the minimum PSI of 12.5. This is despite having spent the entire halftime period in the warmer officials locker room, while presumably the Patriots balls were measured immediately after bringing them in from outdoors.

You can see the direct measurements in the Wells Report, starting on page 66.

[AlUpstateNY]

This is the issue that the defenders of Brady don't seem to understand. He is being punished for failing to cooperate with the investigation, not with deflating the balls. My guess is if he had given full cooperation, they could not have proven that he had anything to do with the deflation and this would have been over with, but he chose not to and thus should be punished because he agreed to cooperate as entry to playing in the league.

Legal details accepted. It will be interesting to see how far the NFL pushes their (forced to cooperate) policy details, and to what extent Mr. Brady might continue contesting an adverse decision.  I suspect the NFL understands the value of "franchise" (if not League) recognition, and golden geese still make for a very expensive sacrificial meal. 

As for the phone, and potential privacy violations via "leaks", which by definition should never happen yet fill scores of Tabloids week after week, it may well depend on what was actually on that phone, which will likely NEVER be known for certain. Some legal scholars maintain that, in hindsight, President Nixon would have been far better served had he destroyed those tapes.

However, punishment, although contractually specified, based on speculation alone is not guaranteed to be consequence free when directed at a highly public and popular personality, and may be far more damaging than corrective.  I suspect, even the NFL, is wary about pushing their "required to cooperate" mandate to the extent of inviting civil and/or Constitutional scrutiny by the Court, much less their customer base.

I submit, this is more a question of defending "process", rather than defending Mr. Brady specifically, and winning battles long decided and rapidly fading into distant memories, at the expense of maintaining a settled, successful and ever expanding peace, seems somewhat unnecessary. Apparently, that's a snowball the NFL will get to choose whether it's worthwhile to star rolling down the hill, having little control over what it might pick up on the way to the bottom..

[Joe Stack]

As for the phone, considering Mr. Brady's status as a "public figure" the risk of allowing plaintiff attorneys and/or League personnel to rummage through his PERSONAL "smartphone" opening the potential for "leaking" of potentially embarrassing information contained within, seems prohibitively high.

This is a huge red herring and full of suppositions that are almost certainly false. In lawsuits, there is what is called discovery -- evidence gathering by both sides. Often one side will want something the other side doesn't want to give over -- in this case (if we are to believe you), the phone. Motions are filed back and forth but what often happens is the sides create an agreement (in Federal Court, I think its under Rule 13) that they put in writing and file with the court. Had Brady's lawyers actually been interested in turning over evidence that was relevant while still managing to protect Brady's privacy in other matters, they could have made a similar agreement (I realize it wasn't a suit) with the NFL and put an enforcement clause in there.

Of course, you have no idea if Brady ever even considered the matters you are asserting here, so it makes your points even less worthy of discussion.

The amount of conjecture, supposition and even outright stupidity that some will go to in order to defend Brady boggles the mind. Anyone who read the full report knows exactly what happened: he cheated. The only people that don't believe it are those that don't want to believe it -- sort of like the fans that scream and yell at you at your games. In defending Brady, you're doing what these fans are doing.