Brady Did It-Deflategate

[AlUpstateNY]

If I may, Joe, confirm I'm not an attorney, nor am I a NE Patriot fan, nor enamored with Mr. Brady, other than respect his accomplishments, performances and reliability over a relatively long career.  You are absolutely correct, my conclusions are totally speculative AS ARE THE ACCUSATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE. I no more than the individuals who completed their investigation and "report" know FOR SURE that Tom Brady had a direct and intentional role in altering the air pressure in those footballs, for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage, which most certainly would be CHEATING.

Those operating from either the perspective that he cheated, or did not, are operating from the same level of speculation, presumption and opinion that has not, and may never be, actually proven, one way or the other.

Perhaps today, it's not as big a deal as before, but labeling a professional athlete as a CHEATER, seems to be the kind of thing you either PROVE, or shut up about.  It has become so easy, so routine to throw someone under the nearest bus, based on nothing but speculation and presumption.

We, as officials, at least on the HS and Collegiate levels are required to know damn well what a defectively pressured football "feels" like.  I don't expect we can feel the exact air pressure, but we should be able to recognize a ball that provided an unfair advantage.  I've never worked on the NFL level, but expect those men are amply qualified to make the same judgments.

I don't know how many footballs passed through 2 sets of hands (the sideline official and the Umpire) changing balls EVERY play, but I suspect it was quite a few and I don't recall any being thrown back. 

You are correct, I'll never KNOW whether Tom Brady actually did, or didn't do anything deliberate and intentional that day, but until I know for absolute sure, I'm not going to slander him as a cheater and cast a phony cloud over what has been a remarkable career.

[Ralph Damren]

I am neither a lawyer nor a scientist ,but only a sports fan....and -yap - a member of Patriot Nation.

As I recall, the report said something like "....probably had some knowledge of..."

As I believe ,the US Justice System says something like "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt..."

It seems to me, being only a sports fan, that "probably had some knowledge of..." doesn't pass muster with "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...".

BUT....

Regressing back to the Mitchell Report (use of illegal stuff in baseball, as reported by MAINE's former senator, George Mitchell)......

A lengthy list was published of current and former players charged with using illegal substances.

Talking heads on the Mike & Mike Show responded to the question of : "What should you do if you were on the list?" by answering something to the effect of: " ...yes I did, only_____, because of______ and back when______."

The talking heads said that most sports fans  would quickly move on . The STORY would no longer be a  story and the media would also move on. BUT IF a player disagreed and announced that he would fight this all the way to the courts, it would continue to remain news, and remain in the minds of the sports fans.

That made sense to me, and as both a sports fan and a Monday morning quarterback, would like to ask my favorite QB the following questions :

    (1) You didn't throw many interceptions, but why did you thro the ones that you did ?

    (2) If you had said, during the investigation : "I have mentioned that I like my footballs on the softer side and some attendant(s) may have felt they were helping me out..."; do you think that we of Patriot Nation would still be talking and worrying about this.

    (3) Reasons for tossing your cell phone :
        (a) don't like the color;
        (b) it's broke;
        (c) mad at it;
        (d) has dirty pix of wife;
        (e) has words of deflated footballs
         
        Which reason was yours???

[AlUpstateNY]

The talking heads said that most sports fans  would quickly move on . The STORY would no longer be a  story and the media would also move on. BUT IF a player disagreed and announced that he would fight this all the way to the courts, it would continue to remain news, and remain in the minds of the sports fans.

I agree with most of what you suggest, however in today's media world, bagging a Tom Brady would be like bagging a white lion.  Hopefully "most" sports fans would understand and eventually forget.  Pete Rose might disagree.

[DallasLJ]

Ralph -- here is where your analysis goes wrong:

  As I believe ,the US Justice System says something like "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt..."

It seems to me, being only a sports fan, that "probably had some knowledge of..." doesn't pass muster with "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...".

  This is not know and never was a criminal case.  There are basically 3 different levels of "proof" in the US court system. First, "beyond a reasonable doubt".  This applies exclusively to criminal cases because we should not be locking people up without sufficient proof.  Because it is "criminal" standard, this only applies to the Government bringing actions.

  The second and third standards of proof are what is used in the civil court system; "a preponderance of the evidence" or "clear and convincing evidence."  Very really is clear and convincing used -- most civil matters, including employment and contract matters, use the preponderance of the evidence standard.  This basically means is it "more likely than not".  This is exactly what the Wells Report found.  In this regard, it is like the traffic accident case where the Defendant is alleged to have run a red light and hit and injured the Plaintiff.  The jury does not have to decide beyond a reasonable doubt ---  the jury only has to decide is it "more likely than not" -- a 51% chance, that based on the evidence, did the Defendant run the red light.  That can come down to simply believing the Plaintiff more than believing the Defendant -- even in the absence of other evidence.  In a He Said -- He Said -- the jury get to decide who they believe more - 51-49.  That is the standard that every EMPLOYER IS ENTITLED TO USE IN MAKING DECISIONS.

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks, DallasLJ, for your legal course. As a sports fan, you want to think your fav can do no ill . I think we can all agree this could have been put to bed many months ago with better cooperation on Brady's part.

On a personal note, Dallas has had a soft spot in my heart SINCE I spent 6 months of the Fall of 1968 there. I became a Cowboy's fan by attending nearly their entire season with comp tickets to the Cotton Bowl. They now rank 3rd on my list behind the Pats, and the Giants (Maine's favorite until the AFL came to town).

   AHH, BUT THE DAZE OF DANDY DON MERIDITH AND BULLET BOB HAYES...

[bossman72]

Why has this not been moved to the NFL section?

[Rulesman]

Why has this not been moved to the NFL section?

Probably because taking the air out of a football is not limited to the NFL. It happens at other levels, too.

[AlUpstateNY]

Thanks, DallasLJ, for your legal course. As a sports fan, you want to think your fav can do no ill . I think we can all agree this could have been put to bed many months ago with better cooperation on Brady's part.

On a personal note, Dallas has had a soft spot in my heart SINCE I spent 6 months of the Fall of 1968 there. I became a Cowboy's fan by attending nearly their entire season with comp tickets to the Cotton Bowl. They now rank 3rd on my list behind the Pats, and the Giants (Maine's favorite until the AFL came to town).

   AHH, BUT THE DAZE OF DANDY DON MERIDITH AND BULLET BOB HAYES...

I had suspected, Ralph, that there was something lurking in your background that would save you.  Being a (former) Giants fan answers that question. (Actually you are still a Giants fan whose eyes may have been temporarily diverted by way of a new interest), but being a Giant fan is genetic. Want proof?  check your fingernails, nibbled?  Giants win often, but rarely easy.

As I'm sure you are well aware, but many newer Cowboy fans might have forgotten, the Cowboys first Head Coach (father) Tom Landry was an All-pro defensive back during his playing career with the NY Giants.

[Magician]

We, as officials, at least on the HS and Collegiate levels are required to know DARN well what a defectively pressured football "feels" like.  I don't expect we can feel the exact air pressure, but we should be able to recognize a ball that provided an unfair advantage.  I've never worked on the NFL level, but expect those men are amply qualified to make the same judgments.

I don't know how many footballs passed through 2 sets of hands (the sideline official and the Umpire) changing balls EVERY play, but I suspect it was quite a few and I don't recall any being thrown back. 

If you are just handling the ball, you aren't likely going to notice 1-2 PSI. You need to squeeze it in order to notice it. A 10 PSI ball is still pretty tight but by doing a squeeze test you will noticed a difference. And while this has become a big issue since the AFC championship game, the NFL officials I've talked to have said that other than the required measurement before the game, the PSI of the ball was not a major concern or emphasis once they were checked. That's no different than any of our games. I understand this particular instance was brought to their attention at halftime of the game, and they were forced to deal with it.

I definitely agree this would have gone away quickly if Brady would have said something like, "yes, I like the ball as soft as legally allowed and my ball boys may have pushed the envelope a little too much." At worst he may have had a $25k fine and this would have all been over. But instead he and the Patriots went on the offensive and lied. At their first press conference he made two statements that could not both be true so he was lying in one of them. Early in his statements he said he's very particular about the footballs and the pressure. Later he said he did not notice anything unusual about the balls in the first half. Only one of those could be true based on the findings of the pressure at halftime. If he was very particular, he would noticed a 2 PSI difference. The only other exception is he only used 10.5 PSI balls so they seemed "normal" to him.

What I don't understand is why they chose to lie and cover up on this issue. It's not a major issue and worth lying about. It may have still been blown way out of proportion, but I doubt as much as it became.

[AlUpstateNY]

What I don't understand is why they chose to lie and cover up on this issue. It's not a major issue and worth lying about. It may have still been blown way out of proportion, but I doubt as much as it became.

I don't disagree with much of anything suggested, except your description of "lying".  You reference a Press Conference, which usually involves a lot of stupid, repetitive, suggestive, "gotcha" questions in rapid succession.  Sorry, but I don't see any "smoking gun" in a conflict between; "yes I'm particular" and "no, I didn't see, or couldn't tell the difference out on the playing field (just like the 2 sets of game official's hands that the balls passed through on their way into the game).

Do you think considering that contradiction a deliberate, calculated effort to deceive, a "lie", on which to base, what today, would be a life long smear on an otherwise brilliant career (of Cheater) just a little exaggerated and overstated?

The whole point of "the hands the balls passed through" is that although the precise difference in PSI is clearly quantifiable with a pressure gauge, to experienced people who routinely deal with actually handling footballs, the difference is NOT AUTOMATICALLY DISCERNIBLE,nor does it automatically provide a deliberate "unfair advantage" so having a preference and "not readily noticing" such a PSI difference, is not only reasonable, but entirely LIKELY (depending on the degree of difference).

If the highly experienced, professional and worthy of playoff assignment game officials couldn't detect any SIGNIFICANT difference, or advantage, through their handling why would you assume a Quaterback ( in the middle of live game action) would?

It seems the MOST accurate assessment of this entire incident, was summed up by the Indianapolis Colts, who simply acknowledged, "We got beat".

It seems much more likely, this whole deflategate nonsense is, and has been, "Much ado about nothing", and the NFL allowed itself to be prodded into a dramatic over reaction by a hungry media frenzy looking to revitalize, and dredge back up, previous issues that have lost the attention of the public's spotlight. 

[DallasLJ]

In fairness to the game officials, and ourselves who as you say, handles the ball a lot, let's remember that this game was played in freezing cold weather.  Each of the game officials was wearing gloves to keep their hands from freezing.  For the gloves to be of any value for warmth, they also would have made it pretty hard for them to notice a 2 PSI difference in the balls.

  So, I think it is a red-herring to say "well, the officials didn't notice, so it must not have been an issue."

[AlUpstateNY]

I'm afraid you TOTALLY misunderstand my observation DallasLJ, allow me to clarify.  In no way am I casting aspersions about the officiating capabilities or performance.  You are correct those officials were wearing gloves, in harsh weather, in the midst of an important contest, which makes a significant difference to someone using a pressure gauge, at halftime (likely indoors).  Mr. Brady was either using similar gloves, or elected to face the harsh weather without gloves for protection, and would be similarly hampered.

Bear in mind both the game officials, and players, had other responsibilities to share their focus on.

I don't know what specific PSI creates a feeling of a problem, however a good percentage of time I can detect, what I consider "problematic", and I suspect these eminently qualified, experienced, selected for post season assignment NFL officials can also detect, "problematic" and deal with it.

The ultimate question is, "was whatever PSI differential, that may have existed, create an unfair advantage, and/or was it severe enough to alert either the game officials, or Tom Brady, both of whom were engrossed in live game action".

All of which brings it back to a single point, if you are going to label Tom Brady a "LIAR" and therefore a "CHEATER", you really need to be basing those accusations on more that "coulda, shoulda" speculation. 

[Rulesman]

 

[fearlessleader]

 

Is it possible to fine anyone else that posts on this subject?     

[Osric Pureheart]

https://youtu.be/kN7jWetRvsE?t=35s

[VALJ]

 

[hefnerjm]

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/15353950/tom-brady-new-england-patriots-four-game-suspension-deflategate-reinstated-appeals-court

[riffraft]

Well his suspension is reinstated. Goodell acted within his rights

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tom-bradys-deflategate-suspension-reinstated-153310809.html;_ylt=A0LEVxkwOh5XcXsAp7hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

[TXMike]

 Wasn't it Yogi who said it ain't over till it's over.    Still many legal obstacles which can be placed in the way. 

[DallasLJ]

Well his suspension is reinstated. Goodell acted within his rights

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tom-bradys-deflategate-suspension-reinstated-153310809.html;_ylt=A0LEVxkwOh5XcXsAp7hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

 Right result.

[DallasLJ]

Wasn't it Yogi who said it ain't over till it's over.    Still many legal obstacles which can be placed in the way.

  I don't think so.  The US Supreme Court will not take this case.  NFL will enforce the suspension right away.  Mr. Brady is sitting the first 4 games.

[TXMike]

There is potentially 1 more step available at the appeals court if he chooses to try to get it.  And if he does try for the SCOTUS step it will take them some time to even accept or deny the case.   And the NFl could even revise the punishment on its own .  I realize it is a long time until Sep but I doubt he will be missing any action in Sept

[DallasLJ]

There is potentially 1 more step available at the appeals court if he chooses to try to get it.  And if he does try for the SCOTUS step it will take them some time to even accept or deny the case.   And the NFl could even revise the punishment on its own .  I realize it is a long time until Sep but I doubt he will be missing any action in Sept

  As an attorney, I can handicap the odds the Supreme Court takes the case at less than 5%.  And, yes, Brady could ask for a rehearing, or a hearing, en banc, that is by all of the Court of Appeals Judges together.  But, again the odds of that are very slim.  More importantly, it would be highly unlikely, if not impossible, for any hearing before the end of the season.  So, with the current status being that the League can enforce the rule, there is nothing legally to stop the suspension.

  Now, if the League, the NFLPA and Brady want to discuss a deal to "drop the matter" now that the League has an published Court case ruling in its favor, I can see a "settlement" but I would be surprised, and disappointed, if there is not at least a 2 game suspension.

[DallasLJ]

This from the beginning of the Court's Decision:

The basic principle driving both our analysis and our conclusion is well established: a federal court’s review of labor arbitration awards is narrowly circumscribed and highly deferential—indeed, among the most deferential in the law. Our role is not to determine for ourselves whether Brady participated in a scheme to deflate footballs or whether the suspension imposed by the Commissioner should have been for three games or five games or none at all. Nor is it our role to second‐guess the arbitrator’s procedural rulings. Our obligation is limited to determining whether the arbitration proceedings and award met the minimum legal standards established by the Labor Management Relations Act, 29 U.S.C. § 141 et seq. (the “LMRA”). We must simply ensure that the arbitrator was “even arguably construing or applying the contract and acting within the scope of his authority” and did not “ignore the plain language of the contract.” United Paperworks Int’l Union v. Misco, Inc., 484 U.S. 29, 38 (1987). These standards do not require perfection in arbitration awards. Rather, they dictate that even if an arbitrator makes mistakes of fact or law, we may not
disturb an award so long as he acted within the bounds of his bargained‐for authority.

[AlUpstateNY]

Well his suspension is reinstated. Goodell acted within his rights

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tom-bradys-deflategate-suspension-reinstated-153310809.html;_ylt=A0LEVxkwOh5XcXsAp7hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByMjB0aG5zBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--

You are correct, Mr. Goodell apparently ' acted within HIS rights", which lends itself to the importance of being sure of the consequences of what you agree to and sign, as it may come back to bite you, when you least expect it.

Being declared right, and being right are not always the same thing.