NCAA Penalty Enforcement?

[bama_stripes]

Curious about the correct enforcement under NCAA rules:

Team A completes a pass, but A81 fumbles at the B-3. The ball rolls through & out the back of the EZ.  Before the completion, B78 is flagged for a PF (hands to the face).

[Grant - AR]

Curious about the correct enforcement under NCAA rules:

Team A completes a pass, but A81 fumbles at the B-3. Thanks he ball rolls through & out the back of the EZ.  Before the completion, B78 is flagged for a PF (hands to the face).

You must have watched the Alabama/Tennessee game Saturday.  Check out 2:36 of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjKyrJccpcs

[hefnerjm]

In the video, the foul occurred during the pass play (before the receiver became a runner), therefore, basic spot would be the the previous spot (B-36).

It obvious that Team A would not want the result of the play (touchback for Team B), so they would accept the penalty:  15 yrds from the previous spot.  Automatic 1st down.  1st & 10 from the B-21.  Clock will start on the snap.

[mccormicw]

Doesn't the running play include the pass play that precedes it (resulting in half the distance from the spot of the fumble)?  I know that is the case if there is no change of possession but not sure the enforcement is the same if there is a change of possession.

[mccormicw]

https://youtu.be/Ze9V1MsRtRw 11:26 of this video shows the referee announcing the penalty enforcement.

[ChicagoZebra]

In the video, the foul occurred during the pass play (before the receiver became a runner), therefore, basic spot would be the the previous spot (B-36).

It obvious that Team A would not want the result of the play (touchback for Team B), so they would accept the penalty:  15 yrds from the previous spot.  Automatic 1st down.  1st & 10 from the B-21.  Clock will start on the snap.

Re-check enforcement for personal fouls. Rule 9-1. Personal fouls during pass plays have special enforcement.

[ljudge]

Correct enforcement.  You wouldn't enforce from the previous spot.  You enforce from PS if there was a change of possession DURING the down.  On this particular play the COP doesn't occur until AFTER the touchback is awarded (and the TB isn't awarded until after the play is over.)

[Morningrise]

There's a lot of Rule 2 in this play situation.

Pass play = all action prior to and during a legal forward pass.

So the Team B hands to the face is during a pass play even though it's not during the pass itself.

Team B personal fouls during pass plays are now all enforced the same as roughing the passer.

That special enforcement is, they are tacked on to the last run - unless there is a change of possession during the down, and unless that last run ended behind the previous spot.

Run = portion of a running play where the ball is in player possession

Running play = run plus subsequent fumble or backward pass, if any

So the end of the run is where the ball carrier is down or loses possession (beanbag). It's not where the subsequent loose ball winds up.

A fumble resulting in a touchback is not a change of possession during the down. If your recollection is otherwise, you're remembering an old interpretation from two rules editors ago.

So we're going half the distance from the spot of the fumble.

[hefnerjm]

Thanks guys for keeping me honest!  I love learning! 

[wlemonnier]

A fumble resulting in a touchback is not a change of possession during the down. If your recollection is otherwise, you're remembering an old interpretation from two rules editors ago.

So we're going half the distance from the spot of the fumble.

Totally agree with Morningrise... explained it perfect !!!

[mccormicw]

Excellent explanation.  Pretty sure I screwed up the interpretation on my own.  Dont think I remember anything from that far back (two rules editors ago).

[TexDoc]

Doesn't the running play include the pass play that precedes it

No. The pass play ends once it becomes a running play.  You have to break any play down to it's components, pass, kick, run, change of possession, etc.  Once you think of any play in that manner, you can correctly enforce any penalty.

[Kalle]

No. The pass play ends once it becomes a running play.  You have to break any play down to it's components, pass, kick, run, change of possession, etc.  Once you think of any play in that manner, you can correctly enforce any penalty.

If you want a special headache, consider that you can have a component which is both a kick and a pass play.

[ElvisLives]

If you want a special headache, consider that you can have a component which is both a kick and a pass play.

Kalle, now that I don't quite understand.  Are you meaning to say that there may be multiple play types during the same down?  If so, that is absolutely true. That happens in every game.  Typically, that would be a running play followed by a passing or kicking play.  Occasionally, we see a running play, followed by a kicking play, followed by a passing play (snap and hold = running play, blocked kick and recovery by A behind NZ = kicking play, and legal forward pass by A = passing play).

But, I can't think of an action with the ball can be classified as more than one play type at the same time.  Anything that happens to the ball that changes the type of play also means the previous play type is over.  Even fouls on the ball (illegally kicking, illegal batting, etc.) don't change the play type.

What am I not understanding?

Robert

[Morningrise]

QB A11 throws a forward screen pass to A88. The ball does not cross the NZ. A88 punts.

Or

Punter A4 kicks the ball sideways to receiver A88 who is behind the NZ. A88 catches it and throws a forward pass.

That last one actually happened in a game of mine. It was supposed to be a world-beating trick play on 4th down. It ended in a pick-six.

In both of these situations, the action at the start of the down would fit the Rule 2 definition of both a pass play and a scrimmage kick play (all action up to the pass, all action up to the kick).

I can't think of a scenario where that creates a rules paradox, though.

[Legacy Zebra]

A pass play is everything from the snap through a legal forward pass. A scrimmage kick play is everything from the snap through the kick. So say you have a punt that is blocked, stays behind the line, and is recovered by A. A1 recovers it and throws a legal forward pass that is caught beyond the line of scrimmage and the receiver is downed there. Before the punt, B75 grabbed and twisted an opponent's face mask. That foul was during both a pass play and a scrimmage kick play. So if you enforce it as a foul during a kick play (since it was before the kick), this is a previous spot enforcement. If you enforce it as a foul during a pass play (since it happened before the pass), it's enforced from the end of the last run by A since it's a personal foul by B and there was no change of team possession during the down.

[ElvisLives]

Yep, I get it.  This definitely needs clarification from above.

Robert

[ChicagoZebra]

I think it makes sense to have the last play take precedence.

Legal forward pass followed by kick: all of these penalties happen during a kick play. (We can have PSK for B, or tack-on enforcement for A)

Kick followed by a legal forward pass: all of these penalties happen during a pass play.

[ElvisLives]

I think it makes sense to have the last play take precedence.

Legal forward pass followed by kick: all of these penalties happen during a kick play. (We can have PSK for B, or tack-on enforcement for A)

Kick followed by a legal forward pass: all of these penalties happen during a pass play.

Don't necessarily disagree, but it could yield some really odd enforcements.  Granted, the plays that create them would be very odd, as well.

(Pass then kick)  Roughing the passer after a kicking down (Team B in possession, enforced at the dead-ball spot).  (Hey ref!  How can you have roughing the passer - they kicked the [expletive] ball!)

(Pass then kick)  Roughing the passer after a kicking down (Team A in possession, enforced at the previous spot, 1st down for A).  (Hey ref!  How can you have roughing the passer - they kicked the [expletive] ball!)

(Kick then pass)  Roughing the kicker after a passing down (no change of team possession), added to the end of the last run.  (Hey ref!  How can you have roughing the kicker - they threw the [expletive] ball!)

(Kick then pass)  Foul by A -  this is the only one that obeys conventional ruling.  Team B would decline all A live-ball fouls, unless they score a TD, and the A foul is a 15-yard variety.

This one is a real "what if," but, technically, it could happen, and illustrates the point quite well.  However, it would require the pass to be first touched beyond the NZ, then returned behind the NZ and kicked:
(Pass then kick)  Ineligible downfield enforced where the dead ball belongs to B, after a punt return.  (Hey ref!  This ain't the NFL - there's no such thing as ineligibles downfield on a punt, you dumb [expletive]!)

Can you imagine the TV announcers on these plays?  Heh, heh, heh...

Personally, I think we should penalize according to the play type during which the ball was in player possession, i.e., between the snap and the recovery of the ball for the blocked scrimmage kick, then during the subsequent passing/running play (or vice-versa, in whichever order they occur).

But what I think isn't important.  We need word from on high.

Robert
 

[JasonTX]

If you want a special headache, consider that you can have a component which is both a kick and a pass play.

2:15 left in the 4th Qtr, with the score tied at 14.  4th and 10 at the 50.  Team A punts and the ball is blocked and remains behind the line of scrimmage.  A22 picks up the loose ball and throws a legal forward pass that is caught by A80 at the B-35.  At the snap and before the kick B50 was flagged for twisting the facemask of A40.  2:06 remains on the clock at the end of the play.  Ruling?  Include clock status.

[ElvisLives]

If I have that in a game before we get any sort of official direction on this issue, (and assuming the play ended at the B-35) I would add face mask foul to the end of the play, 1/10.  I would start the clock on the RFP.
I’d probably be wrong.  But, if I enforce the penalty as though it was on the passing play, then, regarding the clock, I’d stay consistent and treat the clock according to a passing play.
But, with my luck, Shaw would probably tell us that the kick play trumps the passing play, and I screwed the whole thing up.

Robert

[wlemonnier]

Anytime you have a legal kick play... regardless of the down or who has the ball at the end of the down, you're going to start the game clock on the snap.  3-3-2-d-8

[ElvisLives]

Anytime you have a legal kick play... regardless of the down or who has the ball at the end of the down, you're going to start the game clock on the snap.  3-3-2-d-8

Bill, I totally get that.  But, if we treat the clock according to the kick play, then it would seem that we should treat the penalty according to the kick play.  In that case we could only enforce the penalty at the previous spot, because it occurred before the kick.  The penalty and the result of the play yield the same result, but not as good as if the penalty could be added to the end of the play, if it were a passing play.

Can we penalize according to one play type, and manage the clock according to another play type?

These are certainly unusual-to-rare circumstances.  But we get paid to know these answers.  So, we just need someone to clarify these situations.

Robert

[Legacy Zebra]

The clock stops because of the down type, not the play type. If you had a blocked punt recovered by A and B fouled during the run after the recovery you would still start on the snap no matter the penalty enforcement. The foul was during a running play, but it was also a legal kick down.

[Kalle]

I agree that in JasonTX's play situation you enforce the penalty as per pass play rules and start the clock as per kick down rules. But consider this:

4/14 at A-40. A12 punts the ball which lands at A-39 and never crosses the neutral zone. A12 recovers the ball and throws a legal forward pass to A88 who catches the ball at A-50 where he is immediately tackled. Immediately after the snap and before the end of the kick eligible A80 charged at B92 and pushed him off at A-41. Legal use of hands or not?