Author Topic: Potential Referee Mag Incorrect Ruling (Read 11351 times)

GA Umpire · « **on:** July 21, 2019, 03:08:38 AM »

In the current issue of Referee Mag., there appears to be an incorrect ruling in the "Ask Us" section for NFHS rules.

Play: 4th and 22 from Team K's 12 yard line. The punter muffs the snap and the ball is loose on Teams K's four yard line when the punter kicks the ball over his own end line.

Their ruling is Team R can gain possession, 1st and Goal on Team K's 2 yard line, by accepting the penalty for the illegal kick.

I believe this ruling is correct under NCAA rules, but not for NFHS. 9-7-1 and 9-7-1 Pen.

Am I missing anything?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2019, 06:18:43 AM »

No you’re not missing anything. If R accepts the penalty the succeeding spot would end up at the 2 but belong to K with a replay.

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BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #2 on:** July 21, 2019, 07:20:16 AM »

How about the 6 and replay?

bama_stripes · « **Reply #3 on:** July 21, 2019, 07:30:26 AM »

Quote from: BetweenTheLines on July 21, 2019, 07:20:16 AM

How about the 6 and replay?

Loose ball play. Spot of the foul (K4) is behind the basic spot (K12), and is the enforcement spot.

BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2019, 07:50:10 AM »

Half the distance!

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2019, 08:34:08 AM »

From the 4. The all-but-one principle guides us to mark this penalty off from the spot of the foul instead of the previous spot. The spot of the foul is the 4. Half the distance from the 4 is the 2. In NFHS rules illegal kicking is not a loss of down so K retains possession and replays 4th down. From the 2.

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BetweenTheLines · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2019, 08:34:39 AM »

Oops I need more coffee!!!!

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2019, 03:27:24 PM »

another illegal kicking question! in another thread we understand that if the illegal kick results in the ball being kicked out of the field of play in their own end zone it results in a safety as R would decline ^nothe penalty for the illegal kick.

But if the illegal kick does not force the ball out of the end zone and it is just lying there couldn't R fall on it for a touchdown?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2019, 03:36:01 PM »

Yes. The ball retains status so if it’s a grounded loose ball that is not a kick, it’s still live. Any time a player possesses a live ball in the opponents end zone it’s a td.

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Derek Teigen · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2019, 04:23:11 PM »

ok, i mean if K illegally kicks the ball into their own end zone (but not out of the field of play) then 4 things could happen.
1: K falls on it and is touched by R which results in a safety. No tack on foul because it was a safety
2: R falls on the ball and the result is a touchdown. Is there still a tack on foul here? So K would kick from the 50?
3: K recovers the ball and runs the ball back out of the endzone and is tackled before the line to gains. R would gain possession where the run ended because they would decline the penalty.
4. K recovers the ball and advances past the line to gain for the first down. Here R would accept the penalty and K would punt again from their own 2 yard line.

Is my thinking correct on these points?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2019, 04:33:17 PM »

Quote from: Derek Teigen on July 21, 2019, 04:23:11 PM

ok, i mean if K illegally kicks the ball into their own end zone (but not our of the field of play) then 4 things could happen.
1: K falls on it and is touched by R which results in a safety. No tack on foul because it was a safety If K falls on a ball they put in their endzone, it doesn't matter if R touches them or not, it's a safety.
2: R falls on the ball and the result is a touchdown. Is there still a tack on foul here? So K would kick from the 50? No. The scoring play enforcements state that the foul by the opponents of the scoring team either have to come on a down in which there is no change of possession, or on a down in which the foul by the opponents of the scoring team occur AFTER the change of possession. This foul occurs BEFORE. Therefore, R must decline the penalty to keep the score.

3: K recovers the ball and runs the ball back out of the endzone and is tackled before the line to gains. R would gain possession where the run ended because they would decline the penalty. True, provided K did not illegally kick the ball IN the Endzone. In that case, R could still take the penalty, which would be a safety. Or they could decline and keep the ball at the end of the run provided K didn't make the line to gain.
4. K recovers the ball and advances past the line to gain for the first down. Here R would accept the penalty and K would punt again from their own 2 yard line. Correct, assuming K illegally kicked from the 4. (I'm getting my situations mixed up again.)

Is my thinking correct on these points?

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2019, 04:39:56 PM »

Calhoun..ok in point 3 why does the penalty acceptance result in a safety?

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2019, 04:46:15 PM »

Like I said, I'm getting my situation mixed up. In the other thread, the poster changed the illegal kicking situation to K kicking it while the ball was in the endzone. If this happened, R would want the penalty enforced from there as opposed to keeping the ball.

In this situation on this thread, you are right. R should decline the penalty and take the ball, because the illegal kick was at the 4. IF the illegal kick had been from in the endzone, R would most probably want the safety.

Derek Teigen · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2019, 05:10:16 PM »

ok CAlhoun...i also misunderstood and when you said kick the ball 'in' the endzone I was understanding 'into' the end zone.

I am really getting to understand how important it is to be precise in the language and description. As I read in here one time, somebody said sloppy language leads to sloppy officiating or something like that. I love this forum and it will be a big help as the season gets going.

Tom.OH · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2019, 05:57:33 PM »

An error in Referee mag, say it ain't so...

HLinNC · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2019, 06:03:53 PM »

Quote from: GA Umpire on July 21, 2019, 03:08:38 AM

In the current issue of Referee Mag., there appears to be an incorrect ruling in the "Ask Us" section for NFHS rules.

Ref mag.....a mistake?!

markrischard · « **Reply #16 on:** July 22, 2019, 07:46:47 AM »

Derek, remember the "tack on" only applies to scrimmage and free kicks. An illegal kick is neither.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #17 on:** July 22, 2019, 07:58:14 AM »

Quote from: markrischard on July 22, 2019, 07:46:47 AM

Derek, remember the "tack on" only applies to scrimmage and free kicks. An illegal kick is neither.

Don't forget fouls on scoring plays. Technically they would fall under the "tack on" description, as they are enforced either on the succeeding spot or the ensuing kickoff.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #18 on:** July 22, 2019, 09:12:37 AM »

Another thing to keep in mind is the status of an illegal kick is what the ball was before the kick. This occurred in my game a couple of years ago.....

(1) 3rd and 10 from A's 5;
(2) A becomes K and tries a quick kick that is blocked;
(3) ball bounces into end zone;
(4) K illegally kicks it OOB at K's 7;
(5)

(5-man crew);
(6) I said : "I'm sure you want the safety. "

Off we went to the 20 for the free kick.

Several plays later I regained my brain

! The illegal kick retained the status of a kick and an OOB kick on less than 4th down is turned over to R. I should have said - and be near R's coach is this could be a challenging decision : " You can either take the ball at their seven or take the safety and have them kick to you at their twenty."

I kept that secret until post-game and then shared it with my crewmates.

I bought the first round.

Patrick E. · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2019, 06:43:22 PM »

From the Case Book as well as the Referee Magazine preseason guide -

9.7.1 SITUATION B: It is fourth and 10 for A from its own 15-yard line. A1 fakes a kick and runs beyond the neutral zone and kicks the ball at the 20. The kicked ball: (a) is caught by A2 at A's 30 and he is downed there; or (b) goes out of bounds at midfield; or (c) comes to rest on A's 45 and no player of either team will touch it, so the covering official sounds his whistle. RULING: The kick is illegal and the resulting loose ball is treated as a fumble. The normal kicking rules and restrictions are not in effect during an illegal kick. In (a), (b) and (c), if the penalty for the illegal kick is declined, it will be A's ball first and 10 from the yard line where the ball became dead. If the distance penalty is accepted, B may elect enforcement from the end of the run which is the spot of the illegal kick or may elect enforcement from the succeeding spot. [2-24-9, 2-33-1d, 4-2-2e (2), 6-2-1, 10-4-2 EXCEPTION)

I'm trying to understand how 10-4-2 EXCEPTION applies. Thank you in advance.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:19:12 PM »

May I suggest you read something other than Referee Mag play cases?

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Patrick E. · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:40:59 PM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on August 04, 2019, 07:19:12 PM

May I suggest you read something other than Referee Mag play cases?

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Agree CLJ, but I have to read the Case Book too!

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #22 on:** August 04, 2019, 07:54:02 PM »

God point. To answer the question, 10-4-2 exception doesn’t apply. At all.

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