K-R-K Play Clock?

[bama_stripes]

At our last meeting, we were told to use a :40 play clock if K recovers an R fumble following a legal scrimmage kick.  That sounds hinky to me.  What say y’all?

[Ralph Damren]

NFHS Interp. Meeting is this PM. Will try to get the answer for you.

[CalhounLJ]

I believe that’s right. Technically team possession did not end up with a change. Team A started the down with possession and they ended the down with possession beyond the line to gain. The only clock stoppage was to award a first down. There’s casebook support from years ago but I don’t have time to look it up.


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[NVFOA_Ump]

NFHS Interp. Meeting is this PM. Will try to get the answer for you.

Would like to hear the answer on this.  We've also been told that on any scrimmage play down, if A/K will have possession at the end of the down and be next to snap the ball (ie:  possession continues), that we will have a 40 sec play clock with the "virtual RFP".

[CalhounLJ]

I believe game clock starts on ready as well.


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[Ralph Damren]

I believe game clock starts on ready as well.


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3-4-3c would start this on the snap. When we put in the COP clock Rule 3-4-3b, we added c with the rationale that the kicking & receiving units would be replaced by the offense and defense. The usual mass substitutions involved were the basis of this rule. Am unsure of the treatment on the 40" clock. After this afternoon, I hope to be sure!

[Kalle]

FWIW in NCAA it is always a 25s clock after a legal kick down (other than a free kick since last season), and I'm willing to bet that the rationale is what Ralph said.

[Magician]

Even if they say 40 there is a good chance on this play there will be a delay in getting the ball set to the point you'll reset to 25 and wind. It would be cleaner to set it to 25. I'm not sure if we had this situation in the past 3 years during our experiment, but I assume we probably set it to 25 once we cleared everything and wound it when the crew was ready.

[Ralph Damren]

NFHS sez' set at 25"...more news later....

[CalhounLJ]

oops. That's what I get for thinking instead of knowing.. 

[Stinterp]

What about an A-B-A change of possession, not a kick?
 Team A throws an interception, B returns and fumbles and then A recovers in the field of play.  40 or 25?
NFHS says 40, but for the reasons noted above, I think setting it to 25 is cleaner for teams and officials.

[bama_stripes]

NFHS sez' set at 25"...more news later....

Thanks, Ralph.

FWIW, I don’t have a problem with a 40” on an A-B-A play.  Offense and defense are already on the field.

[BetweenTheLines]

Are we not using NFHS GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR FOOTBALL PLAY AND GAME CLOCK OPERATOR Section E. Play Clock Procedures: Subsection 6. Note to the Play Clock Operator: Every situation listed below will result in a 25-second play clock that is not started immediately at any time, but you will wait until the situation has been addressed and the referee will then utilize Signal  #1 which is the very common ready-for-play (with the whistle sounded) or Signal #2 (wind) which restarts both clocks (with the whistle sounded).
Game Situations:
(a) any foul occurs;
(b) play is stopped for an injured player;
(c) any down that involves a score;
(d) either team is granted a timeout;
(e) a players helmet has come completely off;
(f) any down that includes a legal kick;
(g) a measurement for a first down;
(h) team possession changes during or after a down;
(i) the beginning of any period;
(j) an inadvertent whistle; and
(k) an untimed down.
This list includes most 25-second play clock situations, but an extremely rare situation is also a possibility (a dog runs across the field; the lights go out; weather conditions).

I would think that these situations being discussed in this thread have already been addressed.

[CalhounLJ]

(f) definitely applies.

[Ralph Damren]

Thanks, Ralph.

FWIW, I don’t have a problem with a 40” on an A-B-A play.  Offense and defense are already on the field.

You are correct. A has gained a new series. I submitted 2 questions to NFHS. On a legal kick play 25" is applied. My understanding is the experimental states treated it as such. My 2nd question was how to time the elapsed 15 seconds between 40" and 25" on the play clock if the game clock isn't running. Will pass on their suggestion when received.

[bossman72]

What about an A-B-A change of possession, not a kick?
 Team A throws an interception, B returns and fumbles and then A recovers in the field of play.  40 or 25?
NFHS says 40, but for the reasons noted above, I think setting it to 25 is cleaner for teams and officials.

No need for a 25 since both the offensive and defensive units are already on the field.  No need for mass subs.  40 makes sense.

[KWH]

FWIW in NCAA it is always a 25s clock after a legal kick down (other than a free kick since last season), and I'm willing to bet that the rationale is what Ralph said.

Kalle - With all due respect, I am sure that your NCAA Rules Book comments are more than welcome on the RefStripes.com NCAA discussion page.

[ucanfindmj]

If any team is awarded a new series after a legal kick, the game clock starts on the snap.  I also interpret that we would do this on the 25 sec RFP as the punt team K and receiving team R may not be the original offense or defense and subs would need to come in and out.

[CalhounLJ]

3-4-3c would start this on the snap. When we put in the COP clock Rule 3-4-3b, we added c with the rationale that the kicking & receiving units would be replaced by the offense and defense. The usual mass substitutions involved were the basis of this rule. Am unsure of the treatment on the 40" clock. After this afternoon, I hope to be sure!

I believe that’s what Ralph said here


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[refjeff]

Are we not using NFHS GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS FOR FOOTBALL PLAY AND GAME CLOCK OPERATOR Section E. Play Clock Procedures: Subsection 6. Note to the Play Clock Operator: Every situation listed below will result in a 25-second play clock that is not started immediately at any time, but you will wait until the situation has been addressed and the referee will then utilize Signal  #1 which is the very common ready-for-play (with the whistle sounded) or Signal #2 (wind) which restarts both clocks (with the whistle sounded).
Game Situations:
(a) any foul occurs;
(b) play is stopped for an injured player;
(c) any down that involves a score;
(d) either team is granted a timeout;
(e) a players helmet has come completely off;
(f) any down that includes a legal kick;
(g) a measurement for a first down;
(h) team possession changes during or after a down;
(i) the beginning of any period;
(j) an inadvertent whistle; and
(k) an untimed down.

  According to this, (h) calls for a 25 second clock after A-B-A.

[BetweenTheLines]

I wish I could upload this document from NFHS but this was missed as I missed this section. Section 3 subsection(e) states. A double change of possession during the down occurs resulting in Team A in possession at the end of the down. The game clock is stopped for a first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately. The game clock may then be restarted (wind with no whistle) or not depending on whether out of bounds was a factor. (Example: Team A's forward pass is intercepted and Team B then fumbles during its return and Team A recovers).

That should cover the A-B-A scenario.
And (f) in Section 6 should cover K-R-K.

[GA Umpire]

I wish I could upload this document from NFHS but this was missed as I missed this section. Section 3 subsection(e) states. A double change of possession during the down occurs resulting in Team A in possession at the end of the down. The game clock is stopped for a first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately. The game clock may then be restarted (wind with no whistle) or not depending on whether out of bounds was a factor. (Example: Team A's forward pass is intercepted and Team B then fumbles during its return and Team A recovers).

That should cover the A-B-A scenario.
And (f) in Section 6 should cover K-R-K.

(e)   A double change of possession during the down occurs   resulting in Team A in   possession   at the end   of the down.  The   game   clock   is stopped for a first down and the 40-second play clock is started   immediately.  The game clock may then be   restarted (wind with no whistle) or not   depending   on whether out of bounds was a factor.  (Example: Team A’s   forward pass is   intercepted and Team   B then fumbles during its return and Team A recovers.)   

http://nfhs-football.arbitersports.com/front/105409/Site/Football-Resources/2019-NFHS-Football-Clock-Operator-Instructions

Is this the section you are referring to?

[BetweenTheLines]

Yessir!

[Kalle]

Kalle - With all due respect, I am sure that your NCAA Rules Book comments are more than welcome on the RefStripes.com NCAA discussion page.

Well, considering that NFHS is going through the same adjustment period as NCAA was a few years ago, I just wanted to offer a suggestion as to how the same type of play clock is handled there. Like I said in my post, this may not be relevant, but might offer some guidance as to how other similar rule codes do it.

[Curious]

I wish I could upload this document from NFHS but this was missed as I missed this section. Section 3 subsection(e) states. A double change of possession during the down occurs resulting in Team A in possession at the end of the down. The game clock is stopped for a first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately. The game clock may then be restarted (wind with no whistle) or not depending on whether out of bounds was a factor. (Example: Team A's forward pass is intercepted and Team B then fumbles during its return and Team A recovers).

That should cover the A-B-A scenario.
And (f) in Section 6 should cover K-R-K.

Reddings Guide chart (I'm not where I can get page reference) concurs that a 40' play clock is applicable on double COP situations