Newcomer FCS question

[Morningrise]

New to NFHS. Under what circumstances do we penalize Team R for an invalid fair catch signal?

NCAA had it easy. Signals are signals, and if you saw a half-hearted mini-wave, the only thing you had to do differently was not flag A/K for tackling the guy.

In NFHS, do I have to flag R instead? Is there an extremely lenient philosophy of construing everything as a valid signal, to avoid this?

What about a get-away signal? That is an invalid signal in NCAA. Is it anything in NFHS?

[bossman72]

I've never flagged an invalid signal.  I only would if it caused an issue.

Also, the get-away signal is legal in NFHS and not an invalid signal.

[Morningrise]

I've never flagged an invalid signal.  I only would if it caused an issue.

Also, the get-away signal is legal in NFHS and not an invalid signal.

Thanks. It sounds like it's one of those rules that's never called, then.

Like intentional DPI. That one is easy to explain: If you see it, just call it regular DPI. But what do we do for invalid FC signals? When (not if) R makes a weak and late signal, how *do* we officiate it?

Is it: "Make everything a valid signal." So, if R makes a half-hearted wave and K wraps him up, bang K for 15 yards?

Or how about: "Treat it like no signal." So, if K eases up and lets R take it to the house, no problem?

But I suspect it's closer to: "Treat it like whatever you need to in that particular case." So, if R gets tackled, I guess it was no signal and we've got nothing, and if K eases up, I guess it was a valid signal and we blow it dead.

Am I close?

[ucanfindmj]

The NFHS rules book is clear on what a valid FC signal is.  Anything else is an invalid signal.  This is "paper" football and should be followed precisely for all examination questions.  For "grass" football you use your discretion, but remember that it is clear in the rules book, if any of your state governing committee has an issue with what action/inactions you choose for the field.  It is not a common foul but does follow PSK enforcement in most all cases, if called.  Most of our games are played at night, so blocking the sun is usually not an issue on judging this ruling.  Most of the calls are coming from a receiver using both arms and a clear cut situation of an invalid FC signal.

[Derek Teigen]

In one game last year I remember the punt receiver made a fair catch signal, caught the ball and started running and got about 10-15 yards before the whistling by the covering official stopped the play.   The official  brought the ball back to where the fair catch had been made and didn't call a foul for 'delay of game', which I believe would have been the text book call.

I am also new (to officiating) and I am learning there is a fair of amount of latitude given the situation.

[Ralph Damren]

We have our BJ remind the receivers : "Give me a good fair catch signal ". IMHO, if there is contact after the catch, you need to decide : (1) was the signal valid, if not = 5 yards; (2) was there contact after a valid signal and completed catch = 15 yards.

Things to remember:

An invalid signal falls under PSK and would be enforced from where the kick ended, with all-but-one potential if the kick ended in advance of the invalid signal.

Don't confuse contact by K after a successful fair catch with KCI, as this would be a DB personal foul, HOWEVER, R would still have the choice to free kick and where to spot.

I'm with Bossman that the invalid signal call is rare, but recall once when an R player started to wave both arms and yell "FAIR CATCH, FAIR CATCH" on his 10 as the ball bounced behind him on it's way to the end zone. K's coverage let up, and the proper call placed the ball @ R's 5. Be alert for screwy things such as that. 

[AlUpstateNY]

We have our BJ remind the receivers : "Give me a good fair catch signal ". IMHO, if there is contact after the catch, you need to decide : (1) was the signal valid, if not = 5 yards; (2) was there contact after a valid signal and completed catch = 15 yards.
Things to remember
An invalid signal falls under PSK and would be enforced from where the kick ended, with all-but-one potential if the kick ended in advance of the invalid signal.
Don't confuse contact by K after a successful fair catch with KCI, as this would be a DB personal foul, HOWEVER, R would still have the choice to free kick and where to spot.
I'm with Bossman that the invalid signal call is rare, but recall once when an R player started to wave both arms and yell "FAIR CATCH, FAIR CATCH" on his 10 as the ball bounced behind him on it's way to the end zone. K's coverage let up, and the proper call placed the ball @ R's 5. Be alert for screwy things such as that.

Absolutely agree.  Good to remember, NCAA rules are intended for (young adult) players who are ALL EXPERIENCED with the organized  game of football.  NFHS rules are intended for TEENAGERS (and younger) who may (or may NOT) have varying levels of experience with organized football. (many participants are still in varying stages of a long learning period).

At all levels, PERSONALLY reminding EACH potential kick returner, of the requirements of a valid FC signal prior to EVERY kick, is an essential part of "Preventive Officiating". 

When there is CONTACT following an invalid signal, the suggested penalties should ALWAYS be appropriately applied.  Depending on level, When there is NO CONTACT[/i] following an INVALID signal (the FIRST time, in a game, a STERN reminder and WARNING may suffice).

For Repeated, or persistent, failures penalties should ALWAYS be appropriately  applied ( and include REPEATED REMINDERS).

[Magician]

In one game last year I remember the punt receiver made a fair catch signal, caught the ball and started running and got about 10-15 yards before the whistling by the covering official stopped the play.   The official  brought the ball back to where the fair catch had been made and didn't call a foul for 'delay of game', which I believe would have been the text book call.

I am also new (to officiating) and I am learning there is a fair of amount of latitude given the situation.

This is a great lesson to learn. You should officiate WITH the rule book not BY the rule book. You have to know the rules but also know the intent and philosophy and when it's appropriate to apply them.

For Morningrise, another key distinction in NFHS compared to NCAA, a valid fair catch allows the receiving team to attempt a free kick from that spot to attempt to score. While rare it can happen. That's not an option in NCAA so it generally doesn't matter if the signal was valid or not (I believe only to allow them opportunity to complete catch). That being said, I don't remember ever seeing a flag for an invalid fair catch signal, but if it happens and it affects the play you should flag it. Most of our punts in HS aren't fielded anyway so it's R's ball wherever it rolls dead.

[CalhounLJ]

One situation not specific to this situation but falling under the invalid fc definition is a signal after the ball has touched the ground. We need to flag that every time.


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[bossman72]

Is it: "Make everything a valid signal." So, if R makes a half-hearted wave and K wraps him up, bang K for 15 yards?

Or how about: "Treat it like no signal." So, if K eases up and lets R take it to the house, no problem?

But I suspect it's closer to: "Treat it like whatever you need to in that particular case." So, if R gets tackled, I guess it was no signal and we've got nothing, and if K eases up, I guess it was a valid signal and we blow it dead.

Am I close?

Close enough.  If R makes a weak signal and he gets tackled, you can possibly nail him for invalid signal or let it go.  (Although when you throw your flag for IFC, everyone will think you're throwing it for UNR and will react accordingly).  Would definitely talk to the player afterward if you let it go.  If the coach complained that he got hit after a FC signal, then tell the coach the signal was invalid, therefore he doesn't get protection, and you should have given him a 5 yard penalty for it (but of course, you're a nice guy).

If R makes a weak signal, then R takes off when he catches it, I would nail him here for either IFC or Delay regardless if K reacts to the signal or not (that's hard to tell in real time anyway).

If R makes a weak signal, K slows down, and R catches and does nothing, then just kill it and move on.  Definitely talk to the R player after the play.  The signal was clearly good enough for K to notice and hold up.

If R catches the ball, then signals for a FC, then I guess you have to flag this one.

[ucanfindmj]

We have our BJ remind the receivers : "Give me a good fair catch signal ". IMHO, if there is contact after the catch, you need to decide : (1) was the signal valid, if not = 5 yards; (2) was there contact after a valid signal and completed catch = 15 yards.

R does not have to complete catch, just that he got hit after making a valid signal for the 15 yd KCI.  If he is hit after the valid signal and catch, you may have a dead ball Personal Foul and R would not have the option for an awarded fair catch.

[CalhounLJ]

Close enough.  If R makes a weak signal and he gets tackled, you can possibly nail him for invalid signal or let it go.  (Although when you throw your flag for IFC, everyone will think you're throwing it for UNR and will react accordingly).  Would definitely talk to the player afterward if you let it go.  If the coach complained that he got hit after a FC signal, then tell the coach the signal was invalid, therefore he doesn't get protection, and you should have given him a 5 yard penalty for it (but of course, you're a nice guy).

If R makes a weak signal, then R takes off when he catches it, I would nail him here for either IFC or Delay regardless if K reacts to the signal or not (that's hard to tell in real time anyway).

If R makes a weak signal, K slows down, and R catches and does nothing, then just kill it and move on.  Definitely talk to the R player after the play.  The signal was clearly good enough for K to notice and hold up.

If R catches the ball, then signals for a FC, then I guess you have to flag this one.

If R catches it and then signals we have an ILLEGAL fair catch.


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[VALJ]

We have our BJ remind the receivers : "Give me a good fair catch signal ".

Same here.  An ounce of prevention can save a lot of heartache for a whole lot of people in this case.

[TampaSteve]

This is an excellent topic for an Assn to discuss at meetings and whatever they decide should be called he same way in every game from crew 1 to crew 99.

Also, if an Assn decides the get away signal is in invalid signal to specifically address this with the coach before the game, along with what a valid signal is.  That way when a kid emulates what he sees on TV (like they do everything else) and does give a get away signal there will be no surprises when it's flagged.

to echo what others brought up, certainly BJ should remind the kid to receive the punt to give a good, valud signal.

[KDJBBBJ]

R does not have to complete catch, just that he got hit after making a valid signal for the 15 yd KCI.  If he is hit after the valid signal and catch, you may have a dead ball Personal Foul and R would not have the option for an awarded fair catch.

He doesnt need an option for an awarded fair catch because it was a fair catch. 

[CalhounLJ]

He doesnt need an option for an awarded fair catch because it was a fair catch.

Correct. He would still have the option to free kick.


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[blandis]

In regards to the "get away signal," a few years ago the NFHS came out with an interpretation that is essentially a copy of the NCAA interpretation that said should the Receiver(s) make any type of arm/hand motion on a scrimmage kick, particularly "get away," that there will be no invalid signal but the Receivers will not be allowed to advance the ball once possessed. This prevents confusion rather or not a team's signals are legitimate or if they are intent on confusing Team K thus creating an unfair advantage.

[bossman72]

In regards to the "get away signal," a few years ago the NFHS came out with an interpretation that is essentially a copy of the NCAA interpretation that said should the Receiver(s) make any type of arm/hand motion on a scrimmage kick, particularly "get away," that there will be no invalid signal but the Receivers will not be allowed to advance the ball once possessed. This prevents confusion rather or not a team's signals are legitimate or if they are intent on confusing Team K thus creating an unfair advantage.

Can you post this interp/document please?  I don't remember them ever issuing this interpretation.  The signal is either a foul or it's legal, to my knowledge.

[HLinNC]

Can you post this interp/document please?   I agree with your assessment, Boss.     I don't think I've ever seen such a thing either.  Maybe Cali did for their state but the Fed usually doesn't do that.

Here is the only 2019 case play in regards to the issue.

Rule: 6.5.7


6.5.7 SITUATION B:

During a scrimmage kick, R1 signals for a fair catch by: (a) extending and holding one arm above his head; or (b) partially extending and waving one hand in front of his face; or (c) fully extending and laterally waving both hands above his head or in front of the body without extending one hand at arm’s length above his head; or (d) extending and laterally waving one arm at full length above his head.

RULING: The signals in (a), (b) and (c) are invalid. In (d), the signal is valid. Giving an invalid signal is a foul for which the penalty is enforced under the post-scrimmage kick provision.

COMMENT: When a receiver shades his eyes during a legal kick, he must do so in a manner which is clearly not an invalid fair-catch signal. The responsibility of shading the eyes with a bent arm and not waving it is completely and entirely upon the receiver. (2-9-3, 2-41-6, 6-5-1, 6-5-6)

[Ball Spotter]

This is a great lesson to learn. You should officiate WITH the rule book not BY the rule book. You have to know the rules but also know the intent and philosophy and when it's appropriate to apply them.

This is perfect. Great advice for officiating period.

[Magician]

This is perfect. Great advice for officiating period.

I know not everyone has the desire to advance and as Al often points out HS rules are different than other levels, I think this is a great philosophy that applies to every level. You will NOT advance if you don't subscribe to this philosophy. Of course a key element of "knowing when to apply" is whatever your supervisor/assigner says!