Scrimmage kick play

[NCVAReferee]

K 4/10 @ R-25.  0:01 left in 4Q.  Score R-21 K-20.  K’s field goal attempt is blocked and rebounds behind the line of scrimmage.  R41 picks up the ball and in the excitement half the R sideline run onto the field and interfere with the play.  R41 thinks the play is over and throws the ball high into the air in excitement, but the pass goes backward and K7 catches and runs toward R’s end zone.  R88 tackles K7 at the R-10.

What do you have?

[jgf6]

The ball game is over. The period can not be extended for a "non-player" foul.

[BetweenTheLines]

Illegal Participation live ball foul from the previous spot. 1st & 10 from the 12 1/2 and an untimed down for A.

[bossman72]

Illegal Participation live ball foul from the previous spot. 1st & 10 from the 12 1/2 and an untimed down for A.

I agree.  I would go with IP here.

[CalhounLJ]

The loose ball play ended when R gained possession. The foul for IP occurred during the run by R, followed by a loose ball so the spot of enforcement is the end of the related run, the spot where R tossed the ball into the air. Then we have a change of possession. For K to keep the ball they must decline the foul. Game over. If they accept the penalty, we go back to end of related run, give R the ball for an untimed down.


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[BetweenTheLines]

They interfered after he tossed the ball in the air during K7's run also. 1st & 10 from the 12 1/2.

[CalhounLJ]

You can't have a loose-ball play once R/B recovers. The ball was loose during a running play when R tossed it up. Also, K's run was that - a running play. The change of possession is the key here. If the team in possession fouls while in possession and there is a change of possession afterward, the team in final possession can keep the ball provided they decline the opponents foul. If they accept the foul, we go back to where possession was lost, enforce the penalty, with the team in possession at the time of the foul.

[BetweenTheLines]

They will decline the IP before the change of possession and accept the one after. 1st &10 @ the 12 1/2.

[CalhounLJ]

I guess I missed the IP after change of possession in the original post. Can you point it out to me?


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[CalhounLJ]

They will decline the IP before the change of possession and accept the one after. 1st &10 @ the 12 1/2.

Even if this were the case, we wouldn't go to previous spot. If R fouled after K's final possession, basic spot would be end of run.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Even if this were the case, we wouldn't go to previous spot. If R fouled after K's final possession, basic spot would be end of run.

I would agree.  Multiple R players in excess of 11 are are still on the field during the K run. Enforce the IP from the end of the run.  1st & 10 at the 5.  1 untimed down barring further penalty.

[BetweenTheLines]

A's ball 1st and goal @ the 5 there will be an untimed down! And this would have taken less time than it would have taken R to clear off the field!

[CalhounLJ]

I think you guys are reading a lot more into the post than is there, but whatever.

[CalhounLJ]

I would agree.  Multiple R players in excess of 11 are are still on the field during the K run. Enforce the IP from the end of the run.  1st & 10 at the 5.  1 untimed down barring further penalty.

If they are "still" on the field, and "still" participating, that's not a new foul. That's the continuation of an initial foul. If a player continues to participate after his helmet comes off, we don't penalize every step he takes. We flag him one time, at the point in which he began to "continue to participate." Same way here. If the OP stated that additional players came onto the field and interfered with the play AFTER K obtained final possession, then I would agree with the spot. Problem is, the OP didn't say that. The way I read it, R's IP began when R had possession of the ball. If that's the case, K has to decline the penalty to keep the ball. If they do that, Game over. I know we feel the need to give K/A another shot at it because R fouled, but K had the opportunity to win the game and let the kick get blocked, so it's a fair outcome.

[Morningrise]

Does NFHS have a rule to the effect that, in case of an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules, "the referee may take any action he considers equitable, which includes directing that the down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game"?

Because that's what this calls for, if none of the explicit rules allow Team A another snap in this situation.

[AlUpstateNY]

Does NFHS have a rule to the effect that, in case of an obviously unfair act not specifically covered by the rules, "the referee may take any action he considers equitable, which includes directing that the down be repeated, including assessing a 15-yard penalty, awarding a score, or suspending or forfeiting the game"?

Because that's what this calls for, if none of the explicit rules allow Team A another snap in this situation.

All of NFHS 10-9 (Unfair acts) including the "Penalty" summary addresses your concern, and is supported by NFHS 1-1-6.

[CalhounLJ]

If I thought R prevented a score of something like that I might invoke an unfair act, but just because R ran onto the field doesn’t mean A gets a redo. IMO.


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[jgf6]

Ok, I'm convinced it's an IP foul. Not sure it's clear in the play but when does the interference by the R players running onto the field take place? If it took place while R41's toss was in the air would that not be a loose ball foul. If so, wouldn't the penalty be enforced from the end of the related run by R41? R would be penalized 15 yards from that spot and the period would be extended if accepted. If it took place after the COP then the foul would be enforced from the end of K's run and the period would be extended. How far off am I?

[NVFOA_Ump]

If they are "still" on the field, and "still" participating, that's not a new foul. That's the continuation of an initial foul.

Not sure that I would agree.  In this case there are multiple plays within the down and one of those is when K comes into possession and is running with the ball, I have no problem with a new flag based on the illegal advantage gained on the new play that started after the 2nd COP. We have IP based on an excess number of R players on the field during K's return.  I don't see a big difference to an A-88 holding foul on a run play against B-92, then later after a fumble A-88 then holding B-92 during an attempt to get to the loose ball.  I have no issues with the concepts of advantage/disadvantage coming into the judgment here.

[CalhounLJ]

Ok, I'm convinced it's an IP foul. Not sure it's clear in the play but when does the interference by the R players running onto the field take place? If it took place while R41's toss was in the air would that not be a loose ball foul.
No. The loose-ball play ended when the kick ended and there was a change of possession.
ART. 1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:

a. A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.

b. A legal forward pass.

c. A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.

d. The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.

None of those apply to R/B. Once R/B gains possession of the ball, there cannot be a "loose-ball play." The ball can be loose during a running play, which is what happened here. R recovered the kick, ending the loose-ball play and starting a running play. That run ended when R tossed the ball into the air. (backward pass/fumble - whatever). The next running play began when K caught/recovered the backward pass and carried it beyond the NZ. That run ended when K was tackled. Because the foul by R occurred BEFORE K recovered, They have to decline the penalty by R to keep the ball.   
5-1-ART. 3 . . . When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to:

a. A, if the ball belongs to A on or beyond the line to gain.

b. B, if the ball belongs to B at the end of any down.

c. B, if at the end of the fourth down, the ball belongs to A behind the line to gain.

d. The team in possession at the end of the down, if there is a change of team possession during the down, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the change of possession.

If so, wouldn't the penalty be enforced from the end of the related run by R41?
Yes, but because this is a loose ball during a running play. The basic spot is the end of the related run (which is where R lost possession.

R would be penalized 15 yards from that spot and the period would be extended if accepted.
Correct, but R would have the ball because they were in possession when the foul occurred.

If it took place after the COP then the foul would be enforced from the end of K's run and the period would be extended.
Correct. If the flag was after K recovered, the foul would be enforced from the basic spot, which is the end of the run.
How far off am I?

[CalhounLJ]

Not sure that I would agree.  In this case there are multiple plays within the down and one of those is when K comes into possession and is running with the ball, I have no problem with a new flag based on the illegal advantage gained on the new play that started after the 2nd COP. We have IP based on an excess number of R players on the field during K's return.  I don't see a big difference to an A-88 holding foul on a run play against B-92, then later after a fumble A-88 then holding B-92 during an attempt to get to the loose ball.  I have no issues with the concepts of advantage/disadvantage coming into the judgment here.

I agree that if there was an illegal advantage gained by R AFTER K possessed the ball, you could throw a new flag and have an untimed down. A prime example would be if R88 was one of the guys off the bench. If he tackled K, I would have no problem invoking the unfair foul and awarding a TD. Or, if K had to change his momentum or direction in any way because R came on the field, certainly we have a new IP. But, my first question would be how R could get all the way down there in that short amount of time, seeing as how the team box only extends to the 25. As long as we are speculating on what happened, I have a hard time seeing R impacting the play after K recovers and starts running.

[BetweenTheLines]

In response to CalhounLJ's post, IMO we continue to officiate and if there is a player that is continuing to engage in illegal activity this needs to be penalized to the point up to including a score if need be. If A58 begins to hold at the line of scrimmage and practically tackles B80 while chasing him into A's backfield all the while chasing the runner the QB in this situation and just prior tackling this runner or QB A58 finally gets B80 to the ground during which the QB throws an incomplete pass, what you are saying is the spot is the line of scrimmage. I think not. Or if A 40's helmet comes off while blocking and then Team A loses possession of the ball and B picks it up and is running for a touchdown and A40 tackles him B would simply have to decline the penalty where he lost his helmet to keep the ball. The spirit and the letter of this rule is where he participates and to me this includes when he "continues" to participate.

[CalhounLJ]

In response to CalhounLJ's post, IMO we continue to officiate and if there is a player that is continuing to engage in illegal activity this needs to be penalized to the point up to including a score if need be. If A58 begins to hold at the line of scrimmage and practically tackles B80 while chasing him into A's backfield all the while chasing the runner the QB in this situation and just prior tackling this runner or QB A58 finally gets B80 to the ground during which the QB throws an incomplete pass, what you are saying is the spot is the line of scrimmage. I think not. Or if A 40's helmet comes off while blocking and then Team A loses possession of the ball and B picks it up and is running for a touchdown and A40 tackles him B would simply have to decline the penalty where he lost his helmet to keep the ball. The spirit and the letter of this rule is where he participates and to me this includes when he "continues" to participate.

I agree with that philosophy, and if that occurred in this situation, I would agree that there could be and should be an untimed down. I just don't see it in the original post. There is nothing that indicates the situation you described happened. I will add that simply being on the field is not grounds for a new flag.

This casebook play supports your position:
9.6.4 SITUATION E:
With third down and 12 yards to go from A's 45-yard line, quarterback A1 throws a pass to A2 at B's 45-yard line. Teammate A12 moves to get a better view of the play and enters the field of play at B's 40-yard line. During the run after the reception,
(a) A2 collides with A12 and is thereafter tackled by B1; or
(b) B1 slows to avoid A12 as A1 runs for a touchdown.
RULING: Illegal participation in (a) and (b). The penalty of 15 yards is enforced using the "all-but-one" principle. Illegal participation occurs since substitute A12 hindered a teammate or an opponent and participated in the play. The spot of the foul is where the participation occurred, not where A12 entered the field. (2-30, 9-6-4a)

[bama_stripes]

If I thought R prevented a score of something like that I might invoke an unfair act, but just because R ran onto the field doesn’t mean A gets a redo.

Disagree.  There’s no reason for R to prematurely celebrate on the field — punish the guilty.

And for those who might think this is a third-world, will-never-happen play, our Association had a very similar play 10 years or so ago.  K had their game-winning FG attempt blocked, R celebrated on the field, K recovered & advanced, but was tackled at the R-18.  Their second attempt from the R-9 was wide right due to a mishandled snap.

[KWH]

In reality, the R kids run on right when the kick was blocked.
This is IP.
15 yard penalty Half the distance from Previous spot, one untimed down.

Happened in our state championship game last year.
I would attach a video if I knew how.