Author Topic: OU vs KSU onside kick  (Read 12596 times)

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Offline PTReferee

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OU vs KSU onside kick
« on: October 26, 2019, 02:43:30 PM »
Was the OU player blocked into the illegal touching penalty? Should his touching have been ignored??

Offline mccormicw

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2019, 03:45:11 PM »

Offline mccormicw

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 04:17:37 PM »

Offline Clear Lake ref

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 06:35:14 PM »
What about the 2nd OU player that came in and cleaned the clock of the KSU player before the ball went 10?  Yes the KSU initiated against the other OU.

Offline mccormicw

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 07:28:09 PM »
I feel like 2nd block was clearly illegal before ball went 10 yards.

Offline TxBJ

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2019, 08:17:33 PM »
Was the OU player blocked into the illegal touching penalty? Should his touching have been ignored??
Since he was actively involved in the block with the player that blocked him he is not protected from touching the ball.

The rule is for a player not actively blocking and gets knocked into the ball.

Offline bossman72

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 10:09:20 AM »
I feel like 2nd block was clearly illegal before ball went 10 yards.

How?  The B player clearly initiates contact in the NZ.  I would not get hyper technical and say he initiated on one player but not the other he was simultaneously contacting.  This would not be a call to make your living off of.

Offline TxBJ

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OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 12:46:13 PM »
He in no way initiated contact with the 2nd A player. He blocked the 1st A player and then The 2nd A player blocked him. The TV officiating analysts were saying this on Twitter as well.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 12:48:09 PM by TxBJ »

Offline bossman72

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2019, 09:21:17 PM »
Yeah, no way.  Wayyyyyyyyyyy too technical there.  Not the spirit of the rule.  The rule is meant to protect B players who are looking to field the ball and get blasted.  This B player who was actively blocking on this play should never receive protection under any circumstances. (I agree with your assertion of what the players did on the play - we are seeing the same thing.  I disagree it's a foul).

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2019, 01:10:16 PM »
Boss, I think you're overly extending the intent of the rule. It isn't strictly a protection rule but one of gaining an advantage by keeping Team B from getting to the ball by creating a "wall" of sorts. I think if you watch the replay in slow motion, you'll see that BOTH OU players actually are the ones that initiate contact while the KSU player puts his hands up. He may have INTENDED to make a block, but clearly so did the OU players. Had it been only one OU player, I'd err on the side of letting it go. With 2 I think the correct ruling is a flag here.

However, with that said, that's NOT a criticism. I can't blame anyone for not flagging it. It went so fast in real time and we're just not set up in a good enough position to see this AND watch for illegal touching AND watch for recovery AND ...

What I want to know is what was the OU coach saying after the replay. Was he arguing the blocked into the ball or was he just bitching that the call didn't go his way?

Offline TXMike

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Offline TXMike

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2019, 11:53:18 PM »
I am confused.    The ruling on the field was A illegally touched (the inner right thigh of Team A guy between ball and Team B guy).   They did not rule force touch which means they did not rule that A blocked early which is why there is no flag.  Regardless of what IR can or cannot do, now the supervisor is saying he conferred with RR and has decided there was no forced touch.  That means they must be saying either A initiated the block (which would have been a foul), or there was no block and the ball just happened to be touched by Team A illegally.   Anxiously awaiting this week's CFO video.  :-)

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2019, 06:36:11 AM »
The rule is meant to protect B players who are looking to field the ball and get blasted.  This B player who was actively blocking on this play should never receive protection under any circumstances.

I'd agree that there is nothing rising to the level of an illegal block here.  And, I'm not touching the "who blocked who first here" either.  I believe that the officials, with the help of replay, got this right.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline TxBJ

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2019, 09:09:17 AM »
I am confused.    The ruling on the field was A illegally touched (the inner right thigh of Team A guy between ball and Team B guy).

Mike, the ruling on the field was no touch. Replay reversed to illegal touching.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2019, 11:13:27 AM »
This may be the very most difficult play to officiate in all of football.  Even tougher than targeting.  The speed with which everything is happening, and the number of relevant rules is staggering.  Even the most talented and skilled officials struggle with onside kicks.  There is now way - NO WAY - that a single official can rule on all of this. With "six in the box," you stand a chance of piecing together the critical elements: 
-Firstly, the B and U need to rule on offside by the kicking team.  Happens frequently.
-Secondly, the S/F needs to know who touches the ball first and where.  Not always easy, but generally not too big of a problem.  If he gets that, most of the battle is won.
-Thirdly, the H/L (maybe the C, if you have one) needs to rule on blocking by Team A.  This is the most difficult thing, because he has to know where is the ball when contact is made, and if the ball has been touched by B.

It is very important that each official takes his assignment, and doesn't try to make a total ruling by himself. Then, everybody has to get together, take as much time as needed, and report what they know, and piece together a ruling.

For crews of five: "Good luck; we're all counting on you."

Offline Willis

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2019, 12:18:58 PM »
If I understand the replay rules correctly this play could become much more controversial.

Since it was ruled "no touch" on the field, then replay can only rule "touch" or "no touch", not "forced touch".  So had the A player been clearly (on replay) forced into touching the ball, does replay official still only get to report that the A player touched the ball since forced touching is not subject to replay?  Would this then overturn the onside recovery even though the illegal touch was a result of being blocked into the ball?

Offline TXMike

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2019, 10:51:27 PM »
Mike, the ruling on the field was no touch. Replay reversed to illegal touching.
  We don't really know what they ruled on the field do we?  If they had ruled the touching was forced maybe they were just considering it as a non touch so let OU have possession. 

Offline Imperial Stout

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2019, 09:29:45 AM »
If the original call was forced touching, then replay shouldn't touch this aspect of the play, as forced touching itself is not reviewable.  If, somehow, that bit of info didn't make its way to replay, that would be a significant procedural error I'd think, even though ultimately, the final outcome was correct. 

Overall, a forced touch on an onside kick would seem to be a rather rare bird indeed given the dynamics of the play compared to a scrimmage kick in the cases nobody really wants to touch a ball that is bouncing around.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 09:32:14 AM by Imperial Stout »

Offline TxBJ

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Re: OU vs KSU onside kick
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2019, 12:14:54 PM »
  We don't really know what they ruled on the field do we?  If they had ruled the touching was forced maybe they were just considering it as a non touch so let OU have possession.
If they would have ruled forced touching replay could not have taken that off. They ruled no touching.