Fouls causing a dead ball

[ncwingman]

A bit of a history question for those that might know -- Rule 6-3-10-b and c cover illegal scrimmage kicks (the return kick and a kick beyond the neutral zone) that are live ball fouls that cause the ball to become dead.

Why? No other codes (Fed or NFL) have this stipulation (or even define 'return kick'). In fact, one of the Fed "Football Fundamentals" is "No live-ball foul causes the ball to become dead".

As far as I can tell, those are the only two examples unless I missed another.

[bossman72]

My guess is that it's just to minimize the rest of the crap that can happen afterward.

So for instance a punt beyond the NZ in NFHS is treated like a fumble.  It rolls untouched into the end zone.  BJ blows his whistle for a touchback since he can't tell where the ball is punted.  Do we now have an IW?

Just cleaner to kill it when you punt it beyond the NZ.

[ncwingman]

Digging slightly deeper, the base concept of an illegal kick isn't defined the same in NCAA as Fed or NFL either. The NCAA definition seems to focus more on when/where an otherwise legal looking punt is made and ignores kicking at a loose ball on the ground (although it is in a catch all definition, "all other kicks are illegal").

It got me thinking that these rules are somehow vestiges of Canadian rules regarding punting the ball back and forth (Example play) and the American colleges explicitly banned the play when comparing to their Canadian counterparts.

[Kalle]

Digging slightly deeper, the base concept of an illegal kick isn't defined the same in NCAA as Fed or NFL either. The NCAA definition seems to focus more on when/where an otherwise legal looking punt is made and ignores kicking at a loose ball on the ground (although it is in a catch all definition, "all other kicks are illegal").

Yes, NCAA (IMO correctly but see another thread on valid differing opinions) has separate rules for "illegal kick" and "illegally kicking the ball." Only the former causes the ball to become dead immediately. There are obviously weird corner cases where you have to rule if a particular action is IK or IKTB (eg. a wildly late "drop-kick" as a scrimmage kick), but even then the end result is about the same (difference of five yards).

[Morningrise]

Digging slightly deeper, the base concept of an illegal kick isn't defined the same in NCAA as Fed or NFL either. The NCAA definition seems to focus more on when/where an otherwise legal looking punt is made and ignores kicking at a loose ball on the ground (although it is in a catch all definition, "all other kicks are illegal").

It got me thinking that these rules are somehow vestiges of Canadian rules regarding punting the ball back and forth (Example play) and the American colleges explicitly banned the play when comparing to their Canadian counterparts.

Kicking the ball back and forth is an integral part of rugby union - The Purest Form Of Football - and I would say the Canadian rules, plus the language in the American rules disallowing it, are the vestiges of that.