« previous next »
Pages: [1]

Author Topic: Def Hold and Tipped Pass  (Read 10921 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« on: November 16, 2019, 08:07:40 PM »
3d and 12 at the A-38.  QB drops back to pass forward.  His pass gets to the A-36 (2 yards behind LOS) where it is tipped.   Ball continued to the A-45 where falls to the ground.  Flag down for def hold at the 50 on an eligible receiver  Auto 1st?
Logged

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4631
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-188
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2019, 08:35:08 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 16, 2019, 08:07:40 PM
3d and 12 at the A-38.  QB drops back to pass forward.  His pass gets to the A-36 (2 yards behind LOS) where it is tipped.   Ball continued to the A-45 where falls to the ground.  Flag down for def hold at the 50 on an eligible receiver  Auto 1st?

No.  By rule, if the ball doesn’t cross the NZ ((which means it is first touched behind the NZ), then there is no first down in the penalty for a contact foul beyond the NZ against an eligible receiver.  So this would be 3/2, A-48.
Logged

Offline bctgp

  • *
  • Posts: 276
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-10
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2019, 10:22:57 PM »
I'm assuming pass was tipped by Team B player or eligible Team A player. But pass continues beyond the NZ. Perhaps I missed something on this?
Logged

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 3002
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-59
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2019, 10:55:48 PM »
Quote from: bctgp on November 16, 2019, 10:22:57 PM
I'm assuming pass was tipped by Team B player or eligible Team A player. But pass continues beyond the NZ. Perhaps I missed something on this?

The pass may have landed beyond the NZ but it didn't cross the NZ.  Confused?  It's all in the definitions in rule 2.  Cross and Lands have their own definitions and are key to this play situation.
Logged

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2019, 09:30:25 AM »
Not sure why they created the rule with that key differentiation but it is what it is ...
https://youtu.be/WOnWSQvefZE
Logged

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4631
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-188
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2019, 10:07:04 AM »
Hmmm.  Wasn’t aware of this play when the comment was posted.  Unfortunate. 
Logged

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2019, 11:18:32 AM »
Was gonna be a first anyway so no biggie  but is a great play for that crossing the LOS vs landing beyond LOS discussion
Logged

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4631
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-188
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2019, 11:24:42 AM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 17, 2019, 11:18:32 AM
Was gonna be a first anyway so no biggie...

Glad to hear that.  Those guys are way too good to get a bunch a grief for that.

Robert
Logged

Offline bctgp

  • *
  • Posts: 276
  • FAN REACTION: +6/-10
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2019, 09:51:59 PM »
So in the YouTube video the official announced it wrong. 1st was not automatic but due to the 10yd penalty enforcement. Is that correct?
Logged

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2019, 10:24:33 PM »
Yes
Logged

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 4228
  • FAN REACTION: +107/-377
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2019, 09:27:36 AM »
Still confused by the sequence here.  Calling official immediately comes to R waving off the flag and is clearly saying something, I'm guessing no DPI since the ball was tipped. R almost immediately announces exactly that, and it looks like were done, Baylor ball.  Then, after some delay the call apparently gets changed to defensive holding?  Does that indicate that a 2nd official also had a flag and in his view it was defensive holding?
Logged
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2019, 12:08:20 PM »
Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on November 18, 2019, 09:27:36 AM
Then, after some delay the call apparently gets changed to defensive holding?  Does that indicate that a 2nd official also had a flag and in his view it was defensive holding?

Or somebody realized that defensive holding can still apply even if it isn't DPI.
Logged

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4631
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-188
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2019, 01:17:37 PM »
Quote from: Kalle on November 18, 2019, 12:08:20 PM
Or somebody realized that defensive holding can still apply even if it isn't DPI.

That's my impression.  But that same 'trigger' should have also raised the question of automatic first down (or not).  Easy for us to armchair.  Thankfully, the result was the same.
Logged

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2019, 01:16:17 PM »
Made Redding's video this week.   I am a little confused though.    https://youtu.be/Ydev6yUV3UM
Logged

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 4631
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-188
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2019, 01:22:43 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 21, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
Made Redding's video this week.   I am a little confused though.    https://youtu.be/Ydev6yUV3UM

We are all confused.  The rule very clearly requires the passed ball to cross the NZ to have the Auto First.  Maybe Redding didn't realize the ball was tipped BEHIND the NZ.  Or, maybe this is another video ruling/interpretation.  I guess he doesn't vet these with anybody.

Somebody help us.

Robert
Logged

Offline JDM

  • *
  • Posts: 358
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-4
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2019, 02:19:30 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on November 21, 2019, 01:16:17 PM
Made Redding's video this week.   I am a little confused though.    https://youtu.be/Ydev6yUV3UM

That's an understatement!
Logged

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 3451
  • FAN REACTION: +114/-35
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2019, 01:28:59 AM »
I guess he doesn't have a written script and just himself forgot at that moment what had happened and what the penalty should really be. Hopefully this is corrected and communicated in CFO as the rules are very clear, like Elvis said, and leaves zero room for interpretation.
Logged

Offline Andrew McCarthy

  • *
  • Posts: 1010
  • FAN REACTION: +21/-6
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2019, 02:40:13 PM »
The CFO videos have really taken a step back this year.  For someone who used to be so picky about using the correct terminology (which I agree with), there are so many examples of lazy rule language.  Take the next play, Play 10, with the two dead ball fouls.  RR says the "fouls offset" while the rules state the "yardage penalties cancel".  This is the kind of thing he used to emphasize at clinics.  Hopefully next year they'll have someone proof the scripts before recording.
Logged

Offline TXMike

  • *
  • Posts: 8775
  • FAN REACTION: +229/-269
  • When you quit learning you quit living
Re: Def Hold and Tipped Pass
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2019, 04:34:00 PM »
It will not be him doing them so who knows what we will see.
Logged
Pages: [1]
« previous next »