Count Em Up

[TXMike]

Interesting sequence here.   Thoughts?  Philosophy?   https://youtu.be/YDLPpt7WJow

[js in sc]

Shouldn't he be counting the defense instead of the offense?

[JasonTX]

I'm wondering if they were about to do a hideout play.

[GA Umpire]

Shouldn't he be counting the defense instead of the offense?

He appeared to be counting the team to his back.

[peterparsons]

This is clip is from Texas, right? If so, as I understand it, the wings count the team on their sideline (offense or defense).

[ElvisLives]

This was Texas high school football, and, in a crew of 5, the wings are supposed count the number of players for the team on their side of the field when they are on defense, and get concurrence with the B.

I think what TxMike is wondering about is the possibility that #3 departed the field, which would mean that he would not be eligible to participate in the next down.
However, as I see it, the L stopped the game before #3 actually got off the field, and, the interruption in the game was an erroneous one on the part of the crew, so I would allow #3 to participate in the next down.

Of great concern to me is the fact that the crew allowed the coach to get way, way out on the field during this sequence.  Somebody - SOMEBODY - needed to respectfully notify this guy that he needs to get off the field. They’ll get this worked out, and let him know what is going on.  OK, so the L and R are busy sorting things out - although they could certainly stop a moment and take care of the coach issue.  But what are the B and U doing?  Get over there and help out. 
Heck, since they are responsible for counting the offense, the U and the R ought to know the player count, and should have told the L, “No. We got this. They only had 11, and #3 was - for some odd reason - attempting to depart.”
Now, the L can be aware of #3, and, if he steps back on the field just before the snap, and A runs a hideout play - bang - he, and hopefully the R and U, can make the call for the UNS.  At the very least, #3 would be guilty of illegal substitution, which the R, U, and L could all get, too.

Thankfully, none of that happened.

Hmmm.  I wonder if the L saw a potential hideout play coming, and used the player count ‘confusion’ to prevent the UNS?  That would get an 8 in my report.  If that happened.

[TXMike]

It was a 7 man crew and the flanks are responsible for their sideline team.  And yes, I was looking to see what some would have as philosophy on this.  This is another example of something we caused and therefore we should be more lenient.   They might have run the play with 10 , their bad.  Or they might have been planning to sneak 3 in before the snap.  Looks like the L was on top of it and likely would
Have caught that has it happened. 

[centexsports]

Philosophy: 
1)  Don't throw a flag because a player is confused.   Throw the flag because you counted 12, not because a player that broke the huddle runs to the sideline.   
2)  If the player doesn't go into the team area, let the coach "unconfuse" him and let him return.   
3)  If he is moving at the snap, doesn't get inside the numbers or hides out, throw the flag.

Everything considered, this is not a big deal (2 bads = 1 good).   Threw a flag based on an assumption + Failed to count the players = wave off the flag and start fresh. 

As for the coach, the deep wing should have come down to monitor the sidelines and keep the coach back while the R, U and Wing discussed the situation.   In my five man crew, I would expect my BJ to come monitor the sideline when he sees the coach come out on the field.

[Legacy Zebra]

Count me in the “prevented a hide out play” group. Whether intentionally or not, I don’t know.

On the ILS subject, don’t pick nits on a confused player who may put a foot in the white and then come back on the field. This shouldn’t be a gotcha rule.

[ElvisLives]

Yeah, if I’d looked a little closer, I’d have seen it was crew of seven.  In that case, the wings have no specific player count responsibility.  Regardless of 5, 7, or 8, the wings have no primary responsibility for counting the offense.
I’d like to think my theory of ‘superior preventive officiating’ prevailed here.  But, this was probably just a foul up by the L, that worked out with no harm done.

I think we are all on the same page regarding cutting Team A a lot of slack for our screw up, in cases like this.

But, the F, for certain, and perhaps the B and U could have got the extraneous team personnel off the field.  Show some hustle, and get there.

[bctgp]

in 5 man crews for Texas, the flanks do count the team on their sideline so in this case, the L should be counting offense along with R & U right?

[ElvisLives]

in 5 man crews for Texas, the flanks do count the team on their sideline so in this case, the L should be counting offense along with R & U right?

Officially, by the TASO manual (crews of 5 and 7), that is correct.
 
The current CCA manuals (crews of 7 & 8) assigns 'secondary' responsibility for counting Team A players to the H & L. During my FBS days, I don't think our Hs and Ls ever counted either team. Ever.  That duty belonged to the R/U for offense, and the F/S/B for defense.  The wings have enough to do without having to the their (my) jobs, too.

[peterparsons]

If I've got 12, then, unless the snap is imminent, 1, I'm going to count again, and 2, I'm going to get a confirmation count from someone else before my flag comes out. I always like to see 2 flags (minimum) on a 12 count.

In a situation where I think there's a possible hideout play coming, off the back of a story Bill LeMonnier tells, then I'm going to loudly ask a question (at the sort of volume where the defense will be clearly able to hear it) of or about the player in question. On this play, I'd be very loudly asking something like "Number 3, are you playing this down?" a couple of times and, so long as the defense react and cover him, we just carry on.