PAT broken play

[jra104]

Help me out with the rule, if the holder fumbles the snap and ends up throwing the ball into the ez CAN the long snapper be the first one to touch it?  Or is he already an ineligible receiver downfield?

[JasonTX]

Is the long snapper on the end of the line with an eligible number?  I would assume he is not and that he is on the interior line, thus "covered up".  He cannot be more than 3 yards down field when the pass is released and he cannot intentionally touch the ball until it has touched a team B player or official.  The penalty will be 5 yards from the previous spot and Loss of Down.

[jra104]

Huge blown call had us chasing points all second half.
https://youtu.be/lT49ETtQZJ0

[ElvisLives]

Huge blown call had us chasing points all second half.
https://youtu.be/lT49ETtQZJ0

As often as we get unjustified complaints, we have to be able to own genuine errors, and this is one of those cases. Don’t know the teams (don’t want to know), don’t know the officials (don’t want to know). But, there are 4 guys that need to know the ineligibles - U, B, F, and S, even if by elimination, i.e., if they know the outside guys (ends and wingbacks), they can, by process of elimination, arrive at the fact that an ineligible player caught the pass, for ITP, and IDP. The ‘zoom in’ by the camera makes it difficult to see the other linemen, but I think at least one other lineman was well into the end zone, for IDP, when the pass was released, as well. Yes, major error, especially since it resulted in a score.
I also noticed that he B ‘ran over’ the F to cover the catch. When the holder muffed the snap and rose to run, the F should have made a bee line to the corner pylon, not just stand there and spectate.
Lots of re-training needed here.

[jra104]

Elvis. Thanks for that. After each game we’re asked for video. We also mention questionable plays in our submission. I make sure I double check/triple check rules before I submit it. I’ve been able to save our coaches some embarrassment by doing this. This forum and the Texas one is a great place for coaches. Just wish more would explore the rule administration side of the ball.
Thanks for all you guys do.

[TxBJ]

Many years ago as a new-ish official I had the opposite experience.  I was a wing in a sub-varsity game and the team lined up for the try with the snapper on the end of the line.  Linemen weren't split out like in a traditional swinging game, they were just all on the snapper's left.  He snapped it and released, and caught the pass for two points.  I flagged it.  The R did a good job walking me through it instead of just telling me I was wrong.  He said was he wearing an eligible number?  I said yes but he was the snapper.  He said was he on the end of the line?  I stared at him for a second then said wave it off!

[bossman72]

As often as we get unjustified complaints, we have to be able to own genuine errors, and this is one of those cases. Don’t know the teams (don’t want to know), don’t know the officials (don’t want to know). But, there are 4 guys that need to know the ineligibles - U, B, F, and S, even if by elimination, i.e., if they know the outside guys (ends and wingbacks), they can, by process of elimination, arrive at the fact that an ineligible player caught the pass, for ITP, and IDP. The ‘zoom in’ by the camera makes it difficult to see the other linemen, but I think at least one other lineman was well into the end zone, for IDP, when the pass was released, as well. Yes, major error, especially since it resulted in a score.
I also noticed that he B ‘ran over’ the F to cover the catch. When the holder muffed the snap and rose to run, the F should have made a bee line to the corner pylon, not just stand there and spectate.
Lots of re-training needed here.

I've found that it's easier to memorize the ineligibles than to memorize the eligibles.  If you memorize the ineligibles, you can flag this immediately.  If you memorize the ineligibles, then you have to get everyone together, ask if they had 38 as an eligible, then drop a super late flag after everyone already went to the bench.

These plays that are broken down are easy to forget to check where those "dead" numbers end up.  You see an eligible number catch a pass and think things are all good.  This is super easy on film, but it's impossible to call something on the field that you're not looking for.

[ilyazhito]

As B, I look for odd numbers (ends who are ineligible by number, eligible numbers as the snapper/interior line positions) and note if any odd numbers shift to an eligible position. If one of the odd numbers catches a pass, I will know that.

[ElvisLives]

I've found that it's easier to memorize the ineligibles than to memorize the eligibles.  If you memorize the ineligibles, you can flag this immediately.  If you memorize the ineligibles, then you have to get everyone together, ask if they had 38 as an eligible, then drop a super late flag after everyone already went to the bench.

These plays that are broken down are easy to forget to check where those "dead" numbers end up.  You see an eligible number catch a pass and think things are all good.  This is super easy on film, but it's impossible to call something on the field that you're not looking for.

In the construction industry, this is called “means and methods.” Whatever it takes to get the job done. We’d all love to have a rule that, if you are in interior lineman, you must wear an ineligible number, so that we wouldn’t have to confer after a down to determine if we have ITP or IDP. Two guys remembering two numbers, each, seems a bit easier than trying to remember 5 numbers. But, if you can do it, that’s excellent.

[Kalle]

In the construction industry, this is called “means and methods.” Whatever it takes to get the job done. We’d all love to have a rule that, if you are in interior lineman, you must wear an ineligible number, so that we wouldn’t have to confer after a down to determine if we have ITP or IDP. Two guys remembering two numbers, each, seems a bit easier than trying to remember 5 numbers. But, if you can do it, that’s excellent.

This is actually something that NFL has better than NCAA, IMO. If you wear an eligible number you must line up in an eligible location, and if you wear 50-79, you may not line up as an eligible receiver. OK, they do have the notification system, but that too will automatically inform the entire crew that something strange is going on.

[bossman72]

In the construction industry, this is called “means and methods.” Whatever it takes to get the job done. We’d all love to have a rule that, if you are in interior lineman, you must wear an ineligible number, so that we wouldn’t have to confer after a down to determine if we have ITP or IDP. Two guys remembering two numbers, each, seems a bit easier than trying to remember 5 numbers. But, if you can do it, that’s excellent.

You don't have to memorize 5 numbers.  You just have to memorize the eligible numbers in ineligible positions.  Usually on a field goal it's just 1 or 2 people.  Plus, this is divided by the U/H/L (and R if he wants to).

[ElvisLives]

You don't have to memorize 5 numbers.  You just have to memorize the eligible numbers in ineligible positions.  Usually on a field goal it's just 1 or 2 people.  Plus, this is divided by the U/H/L (and R if he wants to).

But, it could be 5, and I have certainly seen SKFs with all five interior linemen wearing numbers other than 50-79. Yeah, spreading the load is helpful, regardless of who you register. R can take end/wingback to his side, U can take end/wingback to his side, and L can take kicker/holder. Crew of 7 or 8, the S and U can split the interiors among them. The C and R can participate, too, if the spirit moves them.

Means and methods. As the Architect, I don't care if a contractor uses a 100ton crane or a whole bunch of laborers to lift a beam into place, as long as it gets done well and on time. Similar here. Do what it takes to get the job done well, and on time.

[TxBJ]

We have the L and B (or B and F if 7-official crew) state to each other the numbers of the end and wing back on their sides.  Verbalizing helps the brain remember.  Then the R has the kicker and holder.

[JasonTX]

If you have an alternate or someone keeping fouls for you, you can always use O2O and call them out and they can write them down for easy reference after the play.  Just call out the number of who touches the pass and he can tell you if they are guilty or not.

[JDM]

Help me out with the rule, if the holder fumbles the snap and ends up throwing the ball into the ez CAN the long snapper be the first one to touch it?  Or is he already an ineligible receiver downfield?

FYI - the snap can be muffed but not fumbled.

[ElvisLives]

FYI - the snap can be muffed but not fumbled.

The hell you say! Do you mean to tell me that the TV announcers don't know what they are talking about when they yell things like, "Oh! He fumbled the punt!" I find that that hard to believe.

[JDM]

The hell you say! Do you mean to tell me that the TV announcers don't know what they are talking about when they yell things like, "Oh! He fumbled the punt!" I find that that hard to believe.

"Oh! He fumbled the punt!"

Yep, Robert. (As you're astutely aware of) This is actually real fake news. Is that a contradiction in terms?