Team A line of scrimmage in their endzone

[jbmcguan]

By the defintion of "neutral zone",  each play from scrimmage begins with two lines of scrimmage----each team has their own line of scrimmage, established the perpendicular plane thru point of the football nearest them.  It is these two planes that define the neutral zone. 
So......Aqua Team, when their line to gain was inside the end zone, fails to advance ball into their opponents endzone,  after their 4th down. Possession reverts to Team Black. If the dead ball is spotted such that the most forward point of the ball, before reverting possession, is within the ball's length of the goal line, the line of scrimmage for Team Aqua (now the most forward point of the ball after change of possession,) so close to the Black team's goal line, the back end of the ball, and therefore Blacks's line of scrimmage, is INSIDE their endzone. Team Black was not responsible for failure of the dead ball to leave no part on or inside its own goal line, so it is not ruled a safety.  Since ball in play never broke plane of Black's goal line, Aqua team is not awarded a touchdown. Team black gains possession inside the one-foot line, with part of the ball on or beyond their own goal line.  If, at the end of their first play. they adavnce no further, and the ball is spotted no further forward, such that some part of the ball remains on in inside their own goal line, Aqua team will be, by rule interpretation, awarded a safety. So an incomplete pass would automatically be ruled a safety, also. Is this a correct interprtation of the rule??   

[Kalle]

This is incorrect. If team A fails to reach the line to gain on the fourth down, the ball is first spotted at the dead ball spot and will not be moved from there. Then the new line to gain for the (previously) team B is established from the forwardmost point of the ball from team B's perspective. And yes, this means that if the fourth down result is an incomplete forward pass, the box will move the length of the ball towards team A's goal line.

If you carefully read rule 5-1-2 this is relatively clear even without an A.R. to clarify the incomplete forward pass situation.

[jbmcguan]

I dont think I was clear.
If Team A fails to score when their line to gain is the goal line, Team B will gain possession. If the forward progress is spotted after that failure within a football's length of the goal line, Team B begins their new possession with the ball partly inside their endzone, with the "nose" just outside the endzone.  Unusual, but I just saw this happen this past weekend, when the home team put up a goalline stand and took possession inside their own one-foot line, with the nose of the ball just outside the end zone, and most of it at their goal or inside the endzone.
We know from the definition of "neutral zone" that there are two lines of scrimmage at the beginning of every play from scrimmage, in this case the new possession begins with one line inside the endzone (offense) and one just outside (defense) The neutral zone straddles the goal line. So the offense's line of scrimmage for their first possession is actually INSIDE their own endzone, while the defense's line of scrimmage is just outside the endzone.
So, if we apply the approved ruling (are they still ARs 8-5-1-I and 8-5-1-VII that descibe this?)to the beginning of the new set of downs, a no-gain run would result in a subsequent dead ball spot where some part of the ball remains in the offense's end zone, fulfiiling all conditions of the AR and resulting in a safety??  and if so, would not an incomplete pass?
.......
Or
does the language from FR 8-5-1-a about the "defender being responsible" imply that since it is the team in possession of the ball at the snap, they are consider "offense" and not considered the "defender", or does this term refer to the team "defending the goal line" in question?  It would seem that it must refer to the team defending that goal line in question , otherwise AR 8-5-1-VII woudl not apply.

OR.... (WHICH SEEMS MORE FAIR)
since the team responsible for the ball originally being partly inside the endzone was actually the team who first possessed and failed to reach their line to gain (touchdown) , until the offense can begin a scrimmage play from a line of scrimmage completely outside their endzone, a safety cannot be assessed against them.
I hope this is more clear a question

[Kalle]

Let's try this again Assume that at the end of the fourth down the nose of the ball closest to the team B goal line is two inches from the goal line. Team B will now be awarded a new series with the line to gain at 10 yards, 1 foot and 1 inch from the team B GL (assuming that the length of the ball is 11"). The ball is never moved from the dead ball spot.

If an officiating crew has done what you describe, they have screwed up in a major way. The ball can never be partially (or in whole) inside either team's end zone when it is ready for play. Granted, you can get away with incorrectly moving the ball (basically rotating it around the point of forward progress) when you are not close to the end zone, but it is still incorrect.

[bossman72]

I dont think I was clear.
If Team A fails to score when their line to gain is the goal line, Team B will gain possession. If the forward progress is spotted after that failure within a football's length of the goal line, Team B begins their new possession with the ball partly inside their endzone, with the "nose" just outside the endzone.  Unusual, but I just saw this happen this past weekend, when the home team put up a goalline stand and took possession inside their own one-foot line, with the nose of the ball just outside the end zone, and most of it at their goal or inside the endzone.
We know from the definition of "neutral zone" that there are two lines of scrimmage at the beginning of every play from scrimmage, in this case the new possession begins with one line inside the endzone (offense) and one just outside (defense) The neutral zone straddles the goal line. So the offense's line of scrimmage for their first possession is actually INSIDE their own endzone, while the defense's line of scrimmage is just outside the endzone.
So, if we apply the approved ruling (are they still ARs 8-5-1-I and 8-5-1-VII that descibe this?)to the beginning of the new set of downs, a no-gain run would result in a subsequent dead ball spot where some part of the ball remains in the offense's end zone, fulfiiling all conditions of the AR and resulting in a safety??  and if so, would not an incomplete pass?
.......
Or
does the language from FR 8-5-1-a about the "defender being responsible" imply that since it is the team in possession of the ball at the snap, they are consider "offense" and not considered the "defender", or does this term refer to the team "defending the goal line" in question?  It would seem that it must refer to the team defending that goal line in question , otherwise AR 8-5-1-VII woudl not apply.

OR.... (WHICH SEEMS MORE FAIR)
since the team responsible for the ball originally being partly inside the endzone was actually the team who first possessed and failed to reach their line to gain (touchdown) , until the offense can begin a scrimmage play from a line of scrimmage completely outside their endzone, a safety cannot be assessed against them.
I hope this is more clear a question

Your crew was wrong.

If there is a turnover on downs, the ball is exactly where you spotted it.  If it was an incomplete pass on 4th down, the ball is oriented for B's 1st and 10 exactly the way it was prior to 4th down.  Team B gains approx 11 inches of field position.

However, in the middle of the field where this doesn't matter, crews will often fudge the spot.  So if the front tip of the ball was on the B34 on a 4th down incomplete pass, some crews will just flip the ball to touch the 34 going the opposite direction for ease of administration.  You can't really do this so close to the goal line like in your play.

[ElvisLives]

I will, essentially, be repeating what Kalle has said.  He is 100% correct.

Stop thinking that Team B’s line of scrimmage is a one-dimensional reference point on the field for establishing the line to gain for both teams. The ball has mass, and that fact is recognized in the rules in the form of the Neutral Zone.
The two teams are, effectively, pushing the Neutral Zone up and down the field during scrimmage play. Team A’s line of scrimmage is always the end of the NZ nearest them, and Team B’s line of scrimmage is always the end of the NZ nearest them. The line to gain is always 10 yards in advance of the NZ when a new series is established. So, when an incomplete pass on 4th down results in a change of team possession, that is all that happens. Let’s say Team A (for 4th down) was defending the south goal line, and Team B was defending the north goal line. After the incomplete pass on 4th down, the ball is placed EXACTLY where it was when it was snapped for 4th down, with the south end of the ball at the same point as it had been for 4th down, and the north end of the ball at the same point as it had been for 4th down. OK, Team B is now awarded a scrimmage series. The down box is moved to the south end of the ball, the back stake of the chains is moved to the south end of the ball, and the front stake is set 10 yards farther south.
DESPITE WHAT SO MANY FOLKS WILL CONTEND, THE BALL DOES NOT SIMPLY GET FLIPPED OVER ABOUT TEAM B’S LINE OF SCRIMMAGE. The ball remains exactly as it was when it was ready for 4th down, and the down box and back stake are moved to the Team A end of the ball, and the chains stretched and set.
No doubt, even in NCAA games, some - NOT ALL - crews will do the expedient thing when the ball is nowhere near the goal line, and simply flip the ball around. Although that is wrong, you will probably never see anybody raise a stink. In the very rare instance of an incomplete pass on 4th down from the 14” line, Team B’s line of scrimmage will still be 14” from the goal line.
One ‘optic’ that can make a crew look bad is if they place the ball for 4th down, exactly at a yard line, i.e., B’s LOS touching the edge of a yard line. Then, after a 4th down incomplete pass, they flip the ball over, and now the ball is either straddling the yard line, or, worse, completely on the opposite side of the yard line. If I was Team B, I would go ballistic, seeing that I just lost 11 to 15 inches worth of field position. Maybe not a crisis at the 40 yard line, but that would be huge inside the opponents’ 5 yard line.
JBMCGUAN, the bottom line is that flipping the ball about the Team B LOS is incorrect. When the ball is correctly placed back at the previous spot - exactly - there is no issue regarding safety, touchback, or anything else. Team B takes over at the previous spot - which is the entire neutral zone, not just Team B’s LOS. Despite what some may think, neither team gains or loses anything. The neutral zone is exactly where it was for the previous down.

Hope that helps.

[ElvisLives]

Team B gains approx 11 inches of field position.

That is not true. Field position didn't change one iota. The neutral zone is exactly where it was for the previous down. Team A's LOS is the same - they just become Team B. Team B's LOS is the same - they just become Team A. When a crew flips the ball over, THEN one team gains field position, and the other team loses field position. And, and, as you know, that is incorrect.

Not speaking to you, Bossman, so please don't be offended.
Don't be lazy. Spot the ball exactly at the previous spot. Move the down box to the previous Team A end of the ball, set the rear stake there, and stretch the chains toward the previous Team A goal line.

[Covid 22]

Another TV fabricated mechanic.   This is only pertinent due to super slow speed replay, Ultra high resolution cameras, pylon cameras, etc.    Most of the crews I worked with and all of the crews I ran, NFHS & NCAA rules/Texas HS football used the keep it simple and non controversial.   Any play that was at the goal line was either a touchdown or short of the goal line by one football length.  My guys always spotted these short misses one full football from the GL.   

I guess that is why I ended my career.  No room for honest, hardworking men with great judgement and common sense.   And as I have said before, I worked a Mississippi state championship, 4 TAPPS state championships, one of Patrick Mahomes wild 67 to 62 high school playoff games (he lost and the score might have been a point one way or the other) many other games.   I can't match Elvis or Doc or many of the others with much greater resumes but I would take the last crew that I had to any game at any level except pro. 

Elvis, you often retort that a rule (or mechanic) is a rule and it is not the officials prerogative to do it any differently.  But on this site, it has been proven that a rule is a rule until it is not a rule.   

I guess I am like TexDoc and have lost my passion mostly because of all the Bull associated with officiating.  But darn, i still miss Friday nights.

[bossman72]

That is not true. Field position didn't change one iota. The neutral zone is exactly where it was for the previous down. Team A's LOS is the same - they just become Team B. Team B's LOS is the same - they just become Team A. When a crew flips the ball over, THEN one team gains field position, and the other team loses field position. And, and, as you know, that is incorrect.

Not speaking to you, Bossman, so please don't be offended.
Don't be lazy. Spot the ball exactly at the previous spot. Move the down box to the previous Team A end of the ball, set the rear stake there, and stretch the chains toward the previous Team A goal line.

I mean it's just semantics you're fussing over now.  If the tip is touching the B20 on 4th down, Team A has 20 yards to go for a TD.
They throw incomplete and Team B takes over.  They don't have 80 yards to go for a TD.  They have 79 yards and 25 inches to go.  So yes, they gained 11 inches of field position based on what the "front" tip of the ball is.  Just depends on how you look at it.

[ElvisLives]

I mean it's just semantics you're fussing over now.  If the tip is touching the B20 on 4th down, Team A has 20 yards to go for a TD.
They throw incomplete and Team B takes over.  They don't have 80 yards to go for a TD.  They have 79 yards and 25 inches to go.  So yes, they gained 11 inches of field position based on what the "front" tip of the ball is.  Just depends on how you look at it.

No, not semantics. Real life physics. When Team B takes over on downs after an incomplete pass, will any of their players (other than the snapper) be allowed to be in or beyond the NZ when they now snap the ball? No. They couldn't do that while on defense, so their field position was, and still is, their side of the NZ. The same is true for Team A. When Team B now snaps the ball, Team A's field position is that area on their side of the same neutral zone that existed on 4th down.

There is a neutral zone between North and South Korea. If one side goes on the offensive and advances across that NZ, and expels the occupants of some area on the opposite side of the NZ, then, yes, their territory (field position) has changed. But, if the opposite side is able to resist the offensive and forces the aggressor back onto their side of the NZ, with neither side expelling anybody from the territory each occupied before the offensive began (4th down incomplete pass), then neither side gains or loses territory (field position).

On 4th down, each football team has their territory (each side of the NZ). If Team A fails to make the line to gain due to an incomplete forward pass, the field position (territory) for both teams remains as it was before the snap. Neither side gains or loses field position. That's the only way to look at it.

Like I said, during scrimmage play, each side is constantly trying to move the NZ up and down the field. The NZ is a constant of scrimmage play. It can only be moved when a subsequent dead ball (not an incomplete forward pass) is declared. For any incomplete forward pass, the NZ for the next down remains exactly where it was for the previous down, regardless of which team will next snap the ball. Neither team gains or loses any ground.

State U kicks off to State Tech. Yes, when a touchback is declared, the neutral zone is established with State U's LOS exactly at the edge of the 4-inch wide 20-yard line (or 25-yard line, as appropriate), that yard line being centered on a line 20/25 yards from the field side edge of the defending team's goal line. State Tech's LOS is some 11" nearer their goal line (the length of the ball). That would actually be 19 yards and 23" (or 24 yards and 23") from State Tech's goal line. Those two lines establish the neutral zone. State Tech has 80/75 yards and 2" to go to score a TD.
If State Tech were to throw four consecutive incomplete forward passes, that neutral zone remains exactly where it was on 4th down. State U then would have 19/24 yards, 23" to go to score a TD.
No field position changed whatsoever.

TV fabricated mechanic? Not true. I had this discussion with John Adams back in the late 70's, when I wondered about avoiding a safety by flipping the ball over after 4th down near A's goal line. That's when he educated me about the neutral zone being a constant, and that the box needs to be moved to the opposite end of the NZ after a 4th down incomplete pass.
Quite the opposite, in fact. Flipping the ball over is a mechanic by those that lack a true understanding of the rules, and/or are simply lazy. Hate me if you want. But that's the truth, and if that hurts, the hurt can stop by doing it right.

[jbmcguan]

I never foresaw any controversy here, but I admire the passion and commitment to getting it right.
The light bulb went on for me when I finally, for the first time (embarrassed to admit) realized that there are 2, not 1, lines of scrimmage for any play from scrimmage.  The concept of the neutral zone invariant on change of possession exposed the fallacy of the "flip". And really, what is simpler than just leaving it where it lay?
I think this could be the basis of a great bar bet. "where is the line of scrimmage?" or some variation that plays off the assumption that there is only one.
Thanks for all the input.
This example was something I witnessed from a game last week, and just got me to thinking. For the record, I officiated several hundred games in my previous life, but that was more than 35 years ago.  I really enjoyed it, and have always tried to bring a fundamental knowledge of the rules to my fandom of the game, but also know there is always something to learn.   .

[bossman72]

No, not semantics. Real life physics. When Team B takes over on downs after an incomplete pass, will any of their players (other than the snapper) be allowed to be in or beyond the NZ when they now snap the ball? No. They couldn't do that while on defense, so their field position was, and still is, their side of the NZ. The same is true for Team A. When Team B now snaps the ball, Team A's field position is that area on their side of the same neutral zone that existed on 4th down.

There is a neutral zone between North and South Korea. If one side goes on the offensive and advances across that NZ, and expels the occupants of some area on the opposite side of the NZ, then, yes, their territory (field position) has changed. But, if the opposite side is able to resist the offensive and forces the aggressor back onto their side of the NZ, with neither side expelling anybody from the territory each occupied before the offensive began (4th down incomplete pass), then neither side gains or loses territory (field position).

On 4th down, each football team has their territory (each side of the NZ). If Team A fails to make the line to gain, the field position (territory) for both teams remains as it was before the snap. Neither side gains or loses field position. That's the only way to look at it.

Like I said, during scrimmage play, each side is constantly trying to move the NZ up and down the field. The NZ is a constant of scrimmage play. It can only be moved when a subsequent dead ball (not an incomplete forward pass) is declared. For any incomplete forward pass, the NZ for the next down remains exactly where it was for the previous down, regardless of which team will next snap the ball. Neither team gains or loses any ground.

State U kicks off to State Tech. Yes, when a touchback is declared, the neutral zone is established with State U's LOS exactly at the edge of the 4-inch wide 20-yard line (or 25-yard line, as appropriate), that yard line being centered on a line 20/25 yards from the field side edge of the defending team's goal line. State Tech's LOS is some 11" nearer their goal line (the length of the ball). That would actually be 19 yards and 23" (or 24 yards and 23") from State Tech's goal line. Those two lines establish the neutral zone. State Tech has 80/75 yards and 2" to go to score a TD.
If State Tech were to throw four consecutive incomplete forward passes, that neutral zone remains exactly where it was on 4th down. State U then would have 19/24 yards, 23" to go to score a TD.
No field position changed whatsoever.

TV fabricated mechanic? Not true. I had this discussion with John Adams back in the late 70's, when I wondered about avoiding a safety by flipping the ball over after 4th down near A's goal line. That's when he educated me about the neutral zone being a constant, and that the box needs to be moved to the opposite end of the NZ after a 4th down incomplete pass.
Quite the opposite, in fact. Flipping the ball over is a mechanic by those that lack a true understanding of the rules, and/or are simply lazy. Hate me if you want. But that's the truth, and if that hurts, the hurt can stop by doing it right.

I'm not reading all of this.  Literally pointless to argue over.

[ElvisLives]

This is incorrect. If team A fails to reach the line to gain on the fourth down, the ball is first spotted at the dead ball spot and will not be moved from there. Then the new line to gain for the (previously) team B is established from the forwardmost point of the ball from team B's perspective. And yes, this means that if the fourth down result is an incomplete forward pass, the box will move the length of the ball towards team A's goal line.

If you carefully read rule 5-1-2 this is relatively clear even without an A.R. to clarify the incomplete forward pass situation.

Concur. But, wouldn't it be nice if they just added a few more words:
a. The line to gain for a series shall established 10 yards in advance of the most forward point of the ball for the team that will next snap the ball.

And edited 2-25:
2. When the ball has become dead following a free kick down, the previous spot is Team's A's restraining when the free kick was made. When the ball has become dead following a scrimmage down, the previous spot is the location of the neutral zone between the goal lines, and the lateral location of the ball on or between the hash marks, when the ball was snapped for that scrimmage down.

3. The succeeding spot is the location of Team A's restraining line when the next down will be a free kick down, or the location of the neutral zone when the next down will be a scrimmage down.

The current language uses the word "point," which can be quite misleading.
 

[BigSwede]

Bossman appears to be correct. If (as most of you are saying) there is a turnover near the goal line - say at the 1 inch line - the ball stays exactly where it is spotted. Therefore, as Bossman says, Team B gains the length of the ball (approx 11 inches) of field position. In other words, the longest touchdown or drive that Team B can accomplish is 99 yards and 24 inches. And there can never be a 99.9 yard touchdown.

[ElvisLives]

Bossman appears to be correct. If (as most of you are saying) there is a turnover near the goal line - say at the 1 inch line - the ball stays exactly where it is spotted. Therefore, as Bossman says, Team B gains the length of the ball (approx 11 inches) of field position. In other words, the longest touchdown or drive that Team B can accomplish is 99 yards and 24 inches. And there can never be a 99.9 yard touchdown.

No, that is not the case at all. Field position during scrimmage play is determined by the Neutral Zone - not just Team B’s scrimmage line (the line through the Team B end of the ball). As I noted before, both teams are constantly attempting to move the entire neutral zone up and down the field. Each team has their line of scrimmage, which is the same line on the field, regardless if they are on offense or defense. So, when there is an incomplete pass on 4th down, the neutral zone for the next down is the same neutral zone as it was for 4th down. Neither team gains or loses any field position. Similarly, when a player is tackled short of the line to gain or goal line on 4th down, the end of the ball nearest each team’s goal line is their LOS for the next down. If the ball is 1” from the defending team’s goal line, then their LOS is that line 1” from their goal line, whether after 1st, 2nd, 3rd, of 4th down. Their opponent’s LOS is the opposite end of the ball (when situated parallel to the sidelines), again, whether that team is offense or defense. That 11” Neutral Zone doesn’t belong to either team. It is an 11” long area, from sideline to sideline, that gets pushed up and down the field, and each team must be positioned on each side of that zone when the ball is snapped (except for the snapper). When the ball is in play, the most forward part of it (regardless of how oriented) is the defensive end of the NZ, and offensive end of the NZ is 11” toward their own GL. When any part of that NZ is beyond/behind a goal line when the ball is declared dead, then a touchdown, safety, or touchback occurs.

[BigSwede]

Thank you, ElvisLives.  Your description of "the 11” long area, from sideline to sideline, that gets pushed up and down the field" really helped me visualize the explanation.

[ref6983]

I'm not reading all of this.  Literally pointless to argue over.

This was unquestionably the best response on this entire thread.

[Covid 22]

If that is the case, why aren't the chains set to the back ecn of the football?

[ElvisLives]

If that is the case, why aren't the chains set to the back ecn of the football?

They certainly could be. We would then be measuring to see if the offensive end of the ball had reached/exceeded the LTG. And, we would be ‘squaring’ the ball up to the rear-most part of the ball when declared dead. All of that would work, geometrically, just as well as using the defensive end of the ball as the point of measure. But, I suppose those making the rules back around the turn of the 19th/20th centuries just figured it made more ‘visual’ sense to use the defensive end of the ball as the point of measure.
Either way, the neutral zone remains exactly the same. 11” long, with a defensive LOS and an offensive LOS.
That is why, after a 4th down incomplete pass, the down box is moved to the opposite end of the ball/neutral zone.
Wouldn’t make any difference which end of the ball the box/chains were set, as long as the same end is used to start each series, and is used a the point of measure.

[Covid 22]

Then the earlier point about the actual distance for the longest drive possible can never be more than the distance of the back end of the football from the goal line plus the length of the football.   Unless the coach request that the down marker be set at his LOS.   That would allow his set a Guinness Book of Records for the longest drive in football history.

[ElvisLives]

Then the earlier point about the actual distance for the longest drive possible can never be more than the distance of the back end of the football from the goal line plus the length of the football.   Unless the coach request that the down marker be set at his LOS.   That would allow his set a Guinness Book of Records for the longest drive in football history.

My guess is they round everything up to the nearest yard, anyway. If so, 99 yard play/drive would be the max. Who really cares? The only stat that means anything is championships.