Question of the Day

[ElvisLives]

Plagiarizing a bit, in the interest of education:

4/10, B-40, 8:00 (2). As BC A12 is looking for an open receiver, B66, believing he is being fouled (holding) by A77 yells obscenities at the referee, for which the referee drops his foul marker for UNS (abusive language) on B66. A12 then throws a legal forward pass toward A80, but the pass deflects off A80's hands and B99 is able to intercept the pass at the B-25. B99 returns the ball to the B-30, where he is tackled and downed inbounds, and the ball becomes dead. A80, in pursuit of B99 then throws himself on B99, for which the umpire drops his foul marker for a UNR (late hit - no targeting).
Ruling:

(Must include game clock and play clock status.)

[dammitbobby]

That's an interesting one.

The result of the play is an interception by Team B, returned to the B30.  B66 committed an UNS live-ball foul, which is enforced from the previous spot with AFD for Team A. There is also a foul by A80, a dead ball personal foul. That is enforced from the succeeding spot (after B's UNS foul is marked off). The distances offset, and it will be A's ball 1/10 from the B-40. GC will be on the RFP, PC 25.

[ump_ben]

You forgot about the hold on A77 which would offset the live ball UNR 

[dammitbobby]

As worded, I didn't think that there was a foul for holding?

[ump_ben]

Well obviously there was a foul for holding.  If the holding was so bad it made B77 swear at the white hat then it must have been big.


(If it wasn't obvious from the devil horns emoji neither my former comment nor this one was serious.)

[ilyazhito]

The penalty will be enforced 15 yards from the previous spot, with an automatic 1st down to team A. (Rule 9-2.1 Penalty). After the play is over, a 15-yard UNR/LTP penalty is assessed to A80. B66 is charged with his 1st unsportsmanlike conduct. A will have 1/10 from the B-40, with the game clock starting on the ready-for-play signal and a 25-second play clock due to the penalty enforcement resulting in an A-B-A situation.

[dammitbobby]

Well obviously there was a foul for holding.  If the holding was so bad it made B77 swear at the white hat then it must have been big.


(If it wasn't obvious from the devil horns emoji neither my former comment nor this one was serious.)

haha, yeah I see it now.

[ElvisLives]

Now, let’s try this:
4/10, B-20. 8:00 (2). Same UNS on B66, and interception by B99, but he is down inbounds at the B-30. Same late hit by A-80.
Ruling:

[Clear Lake ref]

In that case we go half forward (10) then back 15. So 5 yard loss net and 1/10.

[ElvisLives]

I started this mostly as an exercise to review related clock rules. But the discussion reveals some misunderstandings that I will address, now.
The results in the ultimate rulings provided are correct. However, the reasoning in some of the discussion is incorrect.
In the original scenario, the fouls neither offset nor do the distance penalties cancel. This is a case of a live ball-foul followed by a dead-ball foul (10-1-6). As such, the penalties for both fouls are completed separately and independently of the other. Although I can't imagine why a team would so elect, it is entirely possible for either (or both) teams to decline the penalty for their opponent's foul. So, the R should just consider the choice to accept the penalty for each team to be obvious, and proceed with penalty enforcement. BOTH penalties, technically, get stepped off. Of course, unless 1/2 the distance gets involved, if both penalty distances are the same, the ball ends up in the same spot as the first enforcement spot, as in the original scenario. However, as in the second scenario, the first penalty is enforced 1/2 the distance to the goal, then the second penalty is enforced the full 15 yards, so the ball ends up 5 yards behind the first enforcement spot. In the case of a 5-yard penalty followed by a 15-yard penalty (like an illegal formation foul followed by a dead-ball late hit out of bounds), the ball will end up 10 yards away from the original enforcement spot.
The second element in these situations is the down number. If one of the penalties includes a first down, then the next down will start a new series with first down. However, it is entirely possible for the previous down to be repeated (live-ball Team B DOF that does not leave the ball beyond the LTG, followed by a dead-ball UNR/UNS by Team A). Both distance penalties get enforced, then the down is repeated.
The third element is the clock. In the scenarios provided, there is a change of team possession during the down, but Team A retains the ball after the penalties are enforced. Since Team B will NOT next snap the ball, and there is NO OTHER REASON THAT WOULD HAVE STOPPED THE CLOCK, the game clock will start on the referee's signal. The play clock is 25-seconds, and also starts on the referee's signal.

Good things to review and discuss.

[dammitbobby]

Elvis, I should have been a little clearer - I meant offset in the sense in that we mark off 15 one direction, and then 15 the other, so both penalties are completed.  They are both applied but the net result is a wash.

[ElvisLives]

Elvis, I should have been a little clearer - I meant offset in the sense in that we mark off 15 one direction, and then 15 the other, so both penalties are completed.  They are both applied but the net result is a wash.

We have to be careful about terminology. "Offset" means more than just that the distance penalties are ignored. It also means the down shall be repeated. So, we should always try to use correct terms, and avoid using informal terms like "lateral pass," etc.