Late Sub Question

[Bulldog75]

Had one Friday that I wasn't sure how to handle.

I was at L on Team B's sideline.  On 4th and long Team A subs late with about 10 seconds on the play clock.  Team B sees this and attempts to sub, presumably to force a delay of game.  The rest of my crew doesn't recognize what is going on, and I can't get their attention before the ball gets snapped.  At the snap Team B has 12 players on the field, with their sub still between the 9 yard mark and the sideline.  He doesn't participate in the play as Team A throws a quick incomplete pass.

What I did: nothing.  We screwed up by allowing the ball to be snapped before Team B completed their sub.  But it didn't impact the outcome of the play, and it doesn't seem right to penalize Team B for our error.  But doing nothing also doesn't seem right.

What should I have done?  Blown it dead at the snap and paused to allow the substitution?  Obviously what should have happened is the H recognizing the sub, communicating it to the R who would direct the U to hold up the snap, and allow Team B the opportunity to promptly substitute.  But I'm focusing only on my response here.

[dammitbobby]

Does your crew not use radios? This is a very good reason why we all should. Did anyone else on the crew flag it? B should have seen the subs as well, and S (if 7-man crew.) Especially if either one of those flagged it.

If this were me, and it's obvious that H and/or R are not going into sub mechanics, I'm running towards U to get him to hold, and if that still doesn't work, I'm blowing it dead to allow the substitution to occur.  If your crew has a problem with you doing that, you need a new crew, because you're the one being a crew saver here, to fix their mistake in not seeing the sub. BY doing something, you're at least making it defensible on film that at least one person on the entire crew saw it and tried to correct the error.

 

[Cosmokramer1]

Had one Friday that I wasn't sure how to handle.

I was at L on Team B's sideline.  On 4th and long Team A subs late with about 10 seconds on the play clock.  Team B sees this and attempts to sub, presumably to force a delay of game.  The rest of my crew doesn't recognize what is going on, and I can't get their attention before the ball gets snapped.  At the snap Team B has 12 players on the field, with their sub still between the 9 yard mark and the sideline.  He doesn't participate in the play as Team A throws a quick incomplete pass.

What I did: nothing.  We screwed up by allowing the ball to be snapped before Team B completed their sub.  But it didn't impact the outcome of the play, and it doesn't seem right to penalize Team B for our error.  But doing nothing also doesn't seem right.

What should I have done?  Blown it dead at the snap and paused to allow the substitution?  Obviously what should have happened is the H recognizing the sub, communicating it to the R who would direct the U to hold up the snap, and allow Team B the opportunity to promptly substitute.  But I'm focusing only on my response here.

Everything you stated regarding what should have happened is accurate.  I'm not sure I would have done anything you did differently.  Much of it depends on the current circumstances of the game (some here will disagree with that statement).  You would have not been wrong to be the one to shut the play down and fix it.  That action alone calls out the H, R & U for not holding up the snap.  By letting the play continue, had someone else on the crew flagged team B for the substitution, you then have to go in and emphatically take them off the call.  That's no fun either. 

Since it was 4th down and an incomplete pass, this means we get to have an interval change.  My recommendation is to address it right then rather than waiting to get to the locker room.  You don't want it to occur again in the same game, if possible.  At a minimum, go to your R and tell he we've got to be aware of that kind of substitution. 

[Kalle]

You should have killed the play at the snap. See A.R. 3-5-2-V.

[dammitbobby]

You should have killed the play at the snap. See A.R. 3-5-2-V.

4th quarter, A is winning by 1. Team is pinned deep at the A1 (so they cannot just kneel to run out the clock.) PC shows 7 seconds left and :20 on game clock when A attempts to sub by swapping a wideout. Before U can get to the ball to hold up the center, Team A snaps the ball.

Doesn't do much good to reset to 25, since they're going to run out the GC and not have to snap, depriving B of the turnover on downs and the ability to run a game-winning play... so what's to be done? Can R change it to be on the snap, for equity?

[JDM]

Had one Friday that I wasn't sure how to handle.

I was at L on Team B's sideline.  On 4th and long Team A subs late with about 10 seconds on the play clock.  Team B sees this and attempts to sub, presumably to force a delay of game.  The rest of my crew doesn't recognize what is going on, and I can't get their attention before the ball gets snapped.  At the snap Team B has 12 players on the field, with their sub still between the 9 yard mark and the sideline.  He doesn't participate in the play as Team A throws a quick incomplete pass.

What I did: nothing.  We screwed up by allowing the ball to be snapped before Team B completed their sub.  But it didn't impact the outcome of the play, and it doesn't seem right to penalize Team B for our error.  But doing nothing also doesn't seem right.

What should I have done?  Blown it dead at the snap and paused to allow the substitution?  Obviously what should have happened is the H recognizing the sub, communicating it to the R who would direct the U to hold up the snap, and allow Team B the opportunity to promptly substitute.  But I'm focusing only on my response here.

Whether the substitute participates is irrevalent. The LB ILS foul is penalized the same either way.

Regardless, the play should've never happed.

[ElvisLives]

As Kalle indicates, AR 3-5-2-V covers action outside 2 minutes in the 2nd or 4th periods, for certain. The action is stopped when the snapper begins to move the ball for the snap. No play. If this is the first instance of an attempt to snap the ball before Team B has had the full opportunity to send in subs and get them in place, then the Team A head coach is given the warning that a repeat of such action will be a UNS foul. The ball is re-spotted, and the play clock is set to 25 seconds. I would make certain the game clock is set to the correct time when the attempted snap began, then start both clocks.

In Dammitbobby's example (inside 2 minutes in the 2nd or 4th periods), I would first make certain the game clock is set to the correct time when the attempted snap began. Then I would invoke 3-4-3-a, and declare this as an obviously unfair tactic to consume time, and start the game clock on the snap. The play clock is 25, and starts on the referee's signal.