Let's talk about Illegal Participation (offensive player stepping out of bounds)

[Fatso]

Rule 9-6-1:  Prior to change of possession or when there is no change of possession, no player of A or K shall go out of bounds and return to the field during the down unless blocked out of bounds by an opponent.  If a player is blocked out of bounds and returns to the field during the down, he shall return at the first opportunity.

I hear some guys saying "he can't be the first to touch the ball", although there's nothing in the rule stating that.  Is this still valid or is that part of an old rule?

How do you determine if A stepped out on his own (accidentally or intentionally) or if he was "blocked" out?  If A receiver and B defensive back are running near sideline bumping each other a bit and A steps on sideline, does that constitute blocking? 

How do you officiate this situation generally speaking? 

[bossman72]

Touching the ball has nothing to do with it.  The foul is for leaving while not forced out and returning.

Forced out vs not is just your judgment.  Do you think the receiver would have stepped on the sideline absent the contact?  Some guys want to say ANY contact makes him forced out, but I don't really agree with that.

Also, don't do the dumbest mechanic in all of football officiating... dropping your hat when the receiver goes out of bounds.  That's not in the NFHS manual (and honestly shouldn't be in the NCAA manual as it currently reads either).

[Etref]

Especially when you just bought a new one and it gets trampled!😳

[bama_stripes]

Our state’s when-in-doubt philosophy is that even the tiniest of contact constitutes a “force-out”.  The purpose of the rule is to prevent A/K from gaining an unfair advantage by going OOB.

Also, don't do the dumbest mechanic in all of football officiating... dropping your hat when the receiver goes out of bounds.  That's not in the NFHS manual (and honestly shouldn't be in the NCAA manual as it currently reads either).

For unknown reasons, the PTB in our state have adopted this mechanic.  Thankfully, as a WH, I’ll never have this problem.

[ilyazhito]

Also, don't do the dumbest mechanic in all of football officiating... dropping your hat when the receiver goes out of bounds.  That's not in the NFHS manual (and honestly shouldn't be in the NCAA manual as it currently reads either).

Why do you say that dropping the hat is dumb? AFAIK, the beanbag is used for reference spots (fumbles, end of the kick, momentum) and the flag is used for penalty spots. Going out of bounds by A isn't a foul unless A returns and is the first to touch a pass/kick after he returns. I'm not sure if the spot a player goes out of bounds from qualifies as a reference spot.

Should we use the beanbag to mark A going out, or is there a different mechanic that we should do instead?

[Fatso]

Also, don't do the dumbest mechanic in all of football officiating... dropping your hat when the receiver goes out of bounds.  That's not in the NFHS manual (and honestly shouldn't be in the NCAA manual as it currently reads either).

Dropping the hat is printed in our state mechanics manual. (LA.)  We're instructed to do so when a player steps out of bounds and/or as a 2nd penalty flag. 

[Ia-Ref]

Where the player went out is of no consequence, just that he did.
Just like bean bagging the spot of an interception.
Both are worthless.

[lawdog]

Going out of bounds by A isn't a foul unless A returns and is the first to touch a pass/kick after he returns. I'm not sure if the spot a player goes out of bounds from qualifies as a reference spot.

You need to read rule 9-6.  Before understanding a mechanic it would help to know the rule.  Touching the ball isn't required for IP.

[bossman72]

Why do you say that dropping the hat is dumb? AFAIK, the beanbag is used for reference spots (fumbles, end of the kick, momentum) and the flag is used for penalty spots. Going out of bounds by A isn't a foul unless A returns and is the first to touch a pass/kick after he returns. I'm not sure if the spot a player goes out of bounds from qualifies as a reference spot.

Should we use the beanbag to mark A going out, or is there a different mechanic that we should do instead?

It's a useless mechanic.  It communicates nothing.  Why do we need to do it?  Marking the spot is useless and you will never ever get your hat to the right spot, especially as a deep official.

[ilyazhito]

I agree that the hat does not mark a meaningful spot. With O2O, we could inform the other officials after the play that "82 went out of bounds during the play on his own". With that information, we might then be able to throw a late flag.

However, how would we communicate that to the other officials and to everyone else if we do not have O2O? Right now, coaches see a player catching the ball, but the official's hat (and/or a flag) is on the ground. They might know that the play is coming back, so the hat does have some purpose even if it isn't marking an exact spot. I agree with you that dropping the hat is a pointless mechanic, but what would be a good replacement for it?

[ncwingman]

I agree that the hat does not mark a meaningful spot. With O2O, we could inform the other officials after the play that "82 went out of bounds during the play on his own". With that information, we might then be able to throw a late flag.

However, how would we communicate that to the other officials and to everyone else if we do not have O2O? Right now, coaches see a player catching the ball, but the official's hat (and/or a flag) is on the ground. They might know that the play is coming back, so the hat does have some purpose even if it isn't marking an exact spot. I agree with you that dropping the hat is a pointless mechanic, but what would be a good replacement for it?

Under fed rules, it is illegal participation for a player to intentionally go out of bounds (or without being blocked out) and (among other things) return to the field. If you need to drop the hat to note that the player went out of bounds in a manner that *might* be a foul... it IS a foul as soon as he comes back. There's no point in dropping a hat or bean bag, because it should just be your flag.

Any time I've seen this potentially happen, the official who sees the player go out of bounds is also going to be the one to see him come back in. Alerting the rest of the crew can be done with the flag, again. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I've never seen a play where a player went out of bounds and stayed out of bounds for a while... then came back in at the end of the play to make a tackle or something.

[ilyazhito]

You need to read rule 9-6.  Before understanding a mechanic it would help to know the rule.  Touching the ball isn't required for IP.

Whoops, my brain must have been in NCAA mode. 
Anyway, in NFHS, returning after being intentionally OOB is IP.

In NCAA, the A player who came back has to do something else besides come back (be first to touch the ball on a pass or a kick, or make a tackle) to merit a penalty.

[Kalle]

In NCAA, the A player who came back has to do something else besides come back (be first to touch the ball on a pass or a kick, or make a tackle) to merit a penalty.

That statement is mostly incorrect. In NCAA a team A player who voluntarily goes out of bounds commits a foul if and only if:
a) he returns to the field of play and is first to touch a legal forward pass (7-3-4), or
b) during a scrimmage kick play he returns at all (6-1-11, 6-3-12).

Not meant to derail the NFHS discussion, so please take any arguments on the NCAA rules to the NCAA forum. Just wanted to point this out here in case this happens on a Saturday game you are watching

[NVFOA_Ump]

Our interpreter has always guided us with the statement that ANY and ALL contact by a defender at the sideline shall be determined to decide that the player has been "forced" OB and as long as he comes back in at the first available time he's OK.  He has also reminded us that if the player initiating the contact that caused the 1st player to be OB and that player also steps OB that he is also subject to the IP rules (9-6-2).

[Ralph Damren]

Our interpreter has always guided us with the statement that ANY and ALL contact by a defender at the sideline shall be determined to decide that the player has been "forced" OB and as long as he comes back in at the first available time he's OK.  He has also reminded us that if the player initiating the contact that caused the 1st player to be OB and that player also steps OB that he is also subject to the IP rules (9-6-2).

Our justice system sez : "YE MUST BE GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT"