Enforcement after COP on a scrimmage kick

[dammitbobby]

I think I have a case of the Mondays regarding rules... this came up in the other forum and I believe the enforcement concepts are the same, and I'm not following how they arrived at the enforcement.

'The fun caseplay on this is when R muffs the kick beyond the LOS, K recovers behind the LOS, then K throws an incomplete pass. Result? 1st and 10 for K. Fun!'

So, let's formalize this:

4/10 from A25. K22 punts the ball, where it is partially blocked by B50, and bounces beyond the NZ to the A30. In his attempt to secure the ball, B88 muffs the ball (at the A30), causing it to go back behind the LOS, where A13 recovers the loose ball at the A20. He then throws a forward pass, which falls incomplete.  Ruling?

B's muff of the kick, beyond the NZ, opens the door for either team to gain possession. The kick ends when A13 recovers the loose ball, and A got the ball with clean hands, and a new play segment begins (a run). It would be A's ball, 1/10 (since continuity of downs was broken), from the... previous spot?

When a foul is thrown in, such as IDP?  Why wouldn't the correct answer to mark off the penalty from A's possession point, and go A 1/10 from the A20, since A recovered the kick fair and square (clean hands)?

[ElvisLives]

Uh, a forward pass or ineligible downfield (or anything else) would not be possible after A13 recovers the legally kicked ball that has crossed the NZ. The ball is dead upon A13’s recovery, and the ball belongs to A at that spot for a new possession series.
UNS and UNR fouls after the ball becomes dead would be penalized at the succeeding spot. But, other non-UNR and non-UNS actions would simply be ignored. And, hopefully, such actions would be pre-empted by good officiating in getting whistles sounded immediately upon A13’s recovery, and the use of S3.

[dammitbobby]

Uh, a forward pass or ineligible downfield (or anything else) would not be possible after A13 recovers the legally kicked ball that has crossed the NZ. The ball is dead upon A13’s recovery, and the ball belongs to A at that spot for a new possession series.
UNS and UNR fouls after the ball becomes dead would be penalized at the succeeding spot. But, other non-UNR and non-UNS actions would simply be ignored. And, hopefully, such actions would be pre-empted by good officiating in getting whistles sounded immediately upon A13’s recovery, and the use of S3.

There it is, the piece I was missing. Oddly enough I had something very similar happen Fri night, where B blocked the punt, it went beyond LOS, but B gained possession, then fumbled, and A recovered. Thanks.

[ElvisLives]

There it is, the piece I was missing. Oddly enough I had something very similar happen Fri night, where B blocked the punt, it went beyond LOS, but B gained possession, then fumbled, and A recovered. Thanks.

Maybe similar, but, as I’m sure you know, not the same. Action after team B gains possession of a scrimmage kick is part of the running play that starts with that possession, with Basic Spot/3 & 1 enforcement from the end of that run. If there is a fumble after the ‘return’ (running play) starts, then the spot of the fumble is the end of that run. If there are subsequent fumbles, backward passes, handings, then those spots are the ends of those runs (Basic Spots).
Easy. 

[dammitbobby]

Yes, I meant similar, but definitely not the same.

[ElvisLives]

 

Yes, I meant similar, but definitely not the same.

[Kalle]

And of course, if after a kick - team B possession - fumble - team A possession, team A then throws a forward pass that falls incomplete, that would be a foul, penalize team A five yards from the spot of the pass, 1/10 for team A.

[dammitbobby]

So the loss of down provision goes away, since there is no down to lose?

[Legacy Zebra]

Basically. Remember that “loss of down” is actually an abbreviation for “loss of right to repeat the down”. Since they will be awarded a new series and would not be repeating the down, they don’t need the right to repeat the down.

[ElvisLives]

Legacy is totally correct, but it might help to think of it as follows:

"Loss of Down" means "loss of the right to repeat a numbered down of a scrimmage series." Yeah, a little more to remember, but it covers all of the elements.

[bossman72]

This is one of two instances where NCAA rules makers said "we're not dealing with that" and made the ball dead.  In NFHS, a myriad of confusing things can happen after a kick crosses the NZ, touches B, then is recovered by A who then does something with it.  NCAA just kills that nonsense.  Unfortunately, that could result in a safety if A recovers in their own end zone, but I guess that was a risk they were willing to take.

The other would be when a punter goes beyond the LOS and punts the ball.  NFHS this is treated as a fumble and then you get to deal with the myriad of problems when B calls for a fair catch or A recovers the kick and the inevitable inadvertent whistle.  NCAA said no thanks and just made it dead.

[Morningrise]

This is one of two instances where NCAA rules makers said "we're not dealing with that" and made the ball dead.  In NFHS, a myriad of confusing things can happen after a kick crosses the NZ, touches B, then is recovered by A who then does something with it.  NCAA just kills that nonsense.

And yet, on the other hand, NFHS can't countenance the notion of a pick-six on a PAT. Way too complicated and dangerous to allow.

For the record I support all of the following rules

1. Defensive scores on tries,
2. Fair catch kicks,
3. Return kicks, and naturally...
4. Rouges

[ilyazhito]

Somehow Texas manages to cover that play with 5 officials on a Friday night. Go figure.

[Etref]

Somehow Texas manages to cover that play with 5 officials on a Friday night. Go figure.