Onside kick with first touching and a foul

[FroggyRef]

Good evening all.  It's been a minute since I posted here ... we have a hot topic brewing in the association.

Please forgive me if this topic has been discussed before.  I searched way back and couldn't find anything resembling this topic/scenario.  If it has already been discussed, please let me know the date.

First (pre-heater):  K makes a 5-yard "onside kick" from the K-40.  K12 recovers it at the K-45 in the prone position.  No one else touches it.  R "declines" taking the ball at the spot of first touching.  Who's ball is it?

Main Question (following up to the above):  Rules references - 6-1-6, 6-1-7, 10-4-2 Exception.
1.  K conducts an "onside kick" from the K-40.  Indisputable
2.  Before the ball gets to the K-48, a K player commits an Illegal Block on an R player at the 50.  Indisputable.
3.  We have first touching by K at the K-49.  Indisputable.
4.  K recovers the kick untouched by R at the 49-1/2 or 50 yard line.  A little bit of a dispute about the yard line - but indisputably recovered by K untouched by R.  I understand the difference between the two yard lines, but, in my opinion, I feel it's irrelevant in this scenario.
5.  After the play, K was flagged for an Unsportsmanlike Conduct Foul.

I believe there are two options:
Decline the Illegal Block penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching (K-49).  Then enforce the 15-yd UNS to the K-34 ... making it R's ball 1st/10 @ the K-34.
Accept the Illegal Block penalty (foregoing the spot of first touching).  Enforce the Illegal Block penalty (10-yds) from the previous spot back to the K-30, then enforce the 15-yd UNS back to the K-15.  K will re-kick from the K-15.

During the game, this is how it was enforced:
They invoked 10-4-2 EXCEPTION, and enforced the penalty from the succeeding spot (K-49) believing that K's recovery in the neutral zone meant that R automatically gets the ball if it doesn't go 10 yards (I disagree ... which is why we are here).  Anyways, from the K-49 they enforced a 5-yd penalty for the Illegal Block (they agree 5-yds was wrong) to the K-44.  Then enforced the 15-yd UNS down to the K-29.  They gave R the ball 1st/10 @ the K-29.
  The overarching disagreement in all this is:  If R "declines" taking the ball at the spot of first touching in order to accept the illegal block penalty (and chooses to have the ball put in play as determined by the action which follows first touching) who would next put the ball in play ... K or R?  This matters because if K is next to put the ball in play, the penalty cannot be enforced at the succeeding spot ... it can only be enforced at the previous spot (10-4-2 exception).
   I believe if R "declines" taking the ball at the spot of first touching and takes the results of the play, K is in possession of the ball at the end of the play and would be next to put the ball in play.  They are under the belief that R gets the ball even if R declines taking the ball at the spot of first touching and K was in possession at the end of the down.

Let me know what is correct ... and more importantly, the rationale behind the ruling.
Thanks

[NVFOA_Ump]

1.  It is 100% our job without exception to both know and carefully explain the rule(s) here to the R coach.  The primary rule is 6-1-6 (not 6-2-5).
2.  There are no "options" available here in relation to 6-2-5.
3.  R cannot "decline" to take the ball at the dead ball spot of 1st touching + K possession.  By rule it is 1st and 10 R at that spot.  Important in that this is not a penalty that can be declined.  It is simply by rule R's ball at that spot.
4.  You then would enforce 1 or more penalties based on the dead ball spot where by rule it is R's ball.

[Fatso]

If K recovered the ball before it goes 10 yards and without R touching it, it cannot be K's ball.  It's R's ball right there.

Also, if I'm not mistaken - a spot of first touching is never a penalty enforcement spot.  It might be the same yard line as the dead ball spot or whatever, but a first touching spot is never used to enforce a penalty.

K's recovery in the neutral zone meant that R automatically gets the ball if it doesn't go 10 yards (I disagree ... which is why we are here)

Why do you disagree with this?

[ncwingman]

First (pre-heater):  K makes a 5-yard "onside kick" from the K-40.  K12 recovers it at the K-45 in the prone position.  No one else touches it.  R "declines" taking the ball at the spot of first touching.  Who's ball is it?

R can't "decline" that. R's ball at the spot of first touching is not a penalty enforced for a foul, it's the result of the play (possibly oversimplified).

This is similar to a punt that K picks up beyond the LOS at the R25 (untouched by R). R can't "decline" the first touching and just give K the ball.

As for the whole scenario with penalties:

There are actually three options in this scenario, the two you mentioned and the one they severely botched at applying.

The result of the play is R's ball at the spot of first touching, K49.

R can decline the illegal block penalty and take the ball at the K49, +15 yard to the K34 for the UNS.
R can accept the illegal block penalty, enforcing from the previous spot and replay the kick. K rekicks from the K15 (-10 for block, -15 for UNS).
R can accept the illegal block penalty, enforcing from the spot of first touching, applying the 10-4-2 exception. R's ball at the K24 (+10 for the block, +15 for the UNS)

Technically, they can also decline the unsportsmanlike yardage as well, but that's just getting into absurdity.

[Fatso]

R can't "decline" that. R's ball at the spot of first touching is not a penalty enforced for a foul, it's the result of the play (possibly oversimplified).

The result of the play would be the 49 1/2.  If R accepts a penalty against K, first touching spot is no longer an option.  You don't enforce from the first touching spot because if there's an accepted penalty, that spot doesn't exist. 

I believe there are two options:
Decline the Illegal Block penalty and take the ball at the spot of first touching (K-49).  Then enforce the 15-yd UNS to the K-34 ... making it R's ball 1st/10 @ the K-34.
Accept the Illegal Block penalty (foregoing the spot of first touching).  Enforce the Illegal Block penalty (10-yds) from the previous spot back to the K-30, then enforce the 15-yd UNS back to the K-15.  K will re-kick from the K-15.

I believe your two options are correct and there's a 3rd option --> R can accept the illegal block penalty and tack-on to end of play which is the 49 1/2.  +10 illegal block +15 UNS.  R's ball 1/10 at K 24 1/2.

 

[Fatso]

1.  It is 100% our job without exception to both know and carefully explain the rule(s) here to the R coach.  The primary rule is 6-2-5.

6-2-5 is for scrimmage kicks

[NVFOA_Ump]

6-2-5 is for scrimmage kicks

Reference should be 6-1-6. Thanks for catching that.

[TSHunt]

The result of the play would be the 49 1/2.  If R accepts a penalty against K, first touching spot is no longer an option.  You don't enforce from the first touching spot because if there's an accepted penalty, that spot doesn't exist. 


I believe your two options are correct and there's a 3rd option --> R can accept the illegal block penalty and tack-on to end of play which is the 49 1/2.  +10 illegal block +15 UNS.  R's ball 1/10 at K 24 1/2.

 

The ball being recovered at the 49 1/2 or the 50 does make a difference. If it is recovered at the 50, this is a legal K recovery and R must either enforce fouls from the previous spot or take the first touching spot without the illegal block. (they could decline the Illegal block, take the first touching spot, and then enforce the UNS as mentioned).

First touching always disintegrates if there is an accepted penalty. It is never an enforcement spot for live ball fouls.

[TSHunt]

-

[Steely Dan]

Can they accept the blocking foul and the UNS and have K re-kick?

[riffraft]

Can they accept the blocking foul and the UNS and have K re-kick?

Yes, Kicking off at the 15yl

[bossman72]

The way the rule reads, FroggyRef is 100% correct.

When K recovers the ball, it's K's ball unless the recovery is first touching.  6-1-6 first sentence.

When they made the tack-on rule, they didn't account for this.  They say you tack it on to the succeeding spot, but if you accept the penalty, it cancels first touching and the ball doesn't belong to B/R.

So in this play, in order for B/R to get the ball, they have to decline the illegal block because the ball did not belong to them at the end of the down.

There needs to be an editorial change to say the ball belongs to B/R when A/K possesses the ball prior to it going 10 yards so the tack-on rule is in play.

[NVFOA_Ump]

The way the rule reads, FroggyRef is 100% correct.

When K recovers the ball, it's K's ball unless the recovery is first touching.  6-1-6 first sentence.

Except that in FroggyRef's original case play as described the ball only went 9-1/2 yards and was untouched by R.  By rule that is 1st touching with simultaneous recovery by K short of 10 yards and the ball by rule belongs to R at that spot.  There is no option to "decline" taking the ball here.  His comment that R can decline possession of the ball is incorrect and has no basis in the rules.

[SCline]

Let’s get away from the use of “decline” and use the words written in the book. The right of R to take the ball at the 49.5 is cancelled if a penalty is accepted during the down (6-1-7). Therefore is seems that R can not take first touching and accept the illegal block foul with succeeding spot enforcement.

R can accept the illegal block with previous spot enforcement, or they can accept the results of the play (without first touching and possession by K at the end of the down) and then succeeding spot enforcement. They would never do this.

I agree an editorial change would need to be written in. 6-1-7

The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is canceled if R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Let’s get away from the use of “decline” and use the words written in the book. The right of R to take the ball at the 49.5 is cancelled if a penalty is accepted during the down (6-1-7). Therefore is seems that R can not take first touching and accept the illegal block foul with succeeding spot enforcement.

R can accept the illegal block with previous spot enforcement, or they can accept the results of the play (without first touching and possession by K at the end of the down) and then succeeding spot enforcement. They would never do this.

I agree an editorial change would need to be written in. 6-1-7

You're missing a few key words in your 6-1-7 quote.  The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching is cancelled if R touches the kick and thereafter ....  R did not touch the kick in the case play being discussed.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, IF after first touching @'s 48, K falls on the ball @ K's 49 1/2, play's over kick didn't go 10, R gets the ball @ 49 1/2 + 10 IB +15 USC = R's ball @ K's 24 1/2.

IMHO, IF after first touching @ K's 48, K falls on the ball @ 50, play's over. (1) R can decline the IB, take first touching @ K's 48+ 15 USC = R's ball @ K's 33, OR (2) accept the IB ...remember,guys, illegal block on free kicks is only 10 {9-3-7} +10+15 USC = K re-kicks from  K's 15. 

[bossman72]

You're missing a few key words in your 6-1-7 quote.  The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching is cancelled if R touches the kick and thereafter ....  R did not touch the kick in the case play being discussed.

You ignored the "OR" statement after that.  So to rewrite it:

The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is canceled if [either of these things happen]:
1) R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or
2) if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

So if you accept the illegal block, first touching goes away.  They're not going to give the ball back to K, so they'll decline the illegal block and take it a the "first" first touching spot at the 49.  (+15 for UNS)

[NVFOA_Ump]

You ignored the "OR" statement after that.  So to rewrite it:

The right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching by K is canceled if [either of these things happen]:
1) R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul or
2) if the R penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down.

So if you accept the illegal block, first touching goes away.  They're not going to give the ball back to K, so they'll decline the illegal block and take it a the "first" first touching spot at the 49.  (+15 for UNS)

I would agree with your wording with a minor edit (red) but the "or" does not apply to the case play here since 1.  The ball was untouched by R and became dead when possessed by K inside the 10 yard zone, and 2. There was no live ball foul on R to be enforced.


Pretty clear that R would decline the K live ball foul since this is a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement (a re-kick) and then accept the yardage from the DB spot for the USC.

[Steely Dan]

I would agree with your wording with a minor edit (red) but the "or" does not apply to the case play here since 1.  The ball was untouched by R and became dead when possessed by K inside the 10 yard zone, and 2. There was no live ball foul on R to be enforced.


Pretty clear that R would decline the K live ball foul since this is a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement (a re-kick) and then accept the yardage from the DB spot for the USC.

First touching option is cancelled if there's an accepted penalty on either team, not just R.   

[NVFOA_Ump]

First touching option is cancelled if there's an accepted penalty on either team, not just R.

But we are talking specifically about the case play here. 

[Fatso]

But we are talking specifically about the case play here.

Maybe I'm confused about what point you're trying to make.  But in the case play here, there is a foul by K.  Why did you edit/amend the rule wording to only R fouls in your previous post?

Bottom line - this play has first touching by K at the 49, play ends when K recovers at the 49.5.  If R accepts the illegal blocking foul on K, it gets enforced from the dead ball spot 49.5. 

[ncwingman]

Maybe I'm confused about what point you're trying to make.  But in the case play here, there is a foul by K.  Why did you edit/amend the rule wording to only R fouls in your previous post?

Bottom line - this play has first touching by K at the 49, play ends when K recovers at the 49.5.  If R accepts the illegal blocking foul on K, it gets enforced from the dead ball spot 49.5.

Is the 49.5 not a spot of first touching? R never possessed the ball.

[Fatso]

Is the 49.5 not a spot of first touching? R never possessed the ball.

The 49 and 49.5 are both spots of first touching.  The 49.5 also happens to be the dead ball spot.  Foul on K would be enforced from dead ball spot not from a spot of first touching (even though they're the same yard line). 

[bossman72]

The 49 and 49.5 are both spots of first touching.  The 49.5 also happens to be the dead ball spot.  Foul on K would be enforced from dead ball spot not from a spot of first touching (even though they're the same yard line). 

See that's the crux of the rule wording that's a problem.  (Let's ignore the first touch at the 49 for a minute). The way it reads today (and in the past), team R only gets the ball because K's recovery at the 49.5 is a first touching violation.  Therefore if you accept the illegal block, the first touching goes away and it's enforced at the previous spot.  When they made the tack-on rule, it didn't account for this.

We need an editorial change to clarify that the recovery at the 49.5 makes the ball belong to R since it did not go 10 yards.

[Fatso]

See that's the crux of the rule wording that's a problem.  (Let's ignore the first touch at the 49 for a minute). The way it reads today (and in the past), team R only gets the ball because K's recovery at the 49.5 is a first touching violation.  Therefore if you accept the illegal block, the first touching goes away and it's enforced at the previous spot.  When they made the tack-on rule, it didn't account for this.

We need an editorial change to clarify that the recovery at the 49.5 makes the ball belong to R since it did not go 10 yards.

Ok I finally see what y'all are getting at with the rule wording..... 


What about 6-1-7   "R can take the ball at spot of first touching...... or may choose to put the ball in play as determined by the action which follows first touching."  If K downs the ball before it goes 10 yards, it's R's ball there at the dead ball spot.  It's also a spot of first touching, but for R's purposes for this case play they enforce from dead ball spot.  The action that followed first touching is a dead ball after a free kick that didn't travel 10 yards.