Penalty Enforcement & Chains

[UmpnRef]

Question at the watering hole after Friday's games. Group was split.

A has 4th and 3 at B's 13. A is downed at B's 9yl, runner is flagged for an UNS after the play is over.

So we have a first down. Options mark off the 15 yard penalty and its first and goal at the 24? Or 1st down at the 24 and set the chains for first and ten?

All agreed if this occurs say at B's 30yl, A going end and same play/penalty, handle the penalty first and then set the chains for first and ten.

Trying to find the rule reference and or case play.

Always enjoy reading the interesting topics, plays, and rule interpretations. Thanks

[FroggyRef]

Result would be 1st & 10 at the B-24.  UNS fouls whether they occur during a live-ball period or a dead-ball period are always enforced as a dead-ball.  When the runner is downed at the B-9, he has reached the line to gain ... A gets a first down.  The foul would then be enforced back to the B-24. (5-3-1).  As a rule of thumb ... you can never have more than 1st and 10 until after the ball is made ready-for-play.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Result would be 1st & 10 at the B-24.  UNS fouls whether they occur during a live-ball period or a dead-ball period are always enforced as a dead-ball.  When the runner is downed at the B-9, he has reached the line to gain ... A gets a first down.  The foul would then be enforced back to the B-24. (5-3-1).  As a rule of thumb ... you can never have more than 1st and 10 until after the ball is made ready-for-play.

No question here, FroggyRef is correct.  As noted 5-3-1 is very clear in that DB fouls that occur before the chains are set and the ball is made ready for play are enforced prior to the RFP and therefore the result here is 1st & 10 at the 24 yard line.

[UmpnRef]

Thanks for the rule reference. I have a couple of buddies that owe me a cold one this Friday after our games.

[Fatso]

Also - you might know this but the term "chains are set" is just a saying meaning the next series of downs is established and the ball is declared ready for play.  The chains don't need to be physically set in place, it's a figure of speech.

[ElvisLives]

Proper terminology is: "Before the line to gain has been established", or "After the line-to gain has been established." Those are what is used to know if you have 1/10, or 1/25.

[ncwingman]

Also - you might know this but the term "chains are set" is just a saying meaning the next series of downs is established and the ball is declared ready for play.  The chains don't need to be physically set in place, it's a figure of speech.

I actually had this happen recently.

2nd and 10, A runs a sweep, and WR A81 holds 11 yards downfield as the runner goes past him. Marking the penalty yardage still resulted in A having a first down, just not as far downfield as A would like. We mark off the penalty, the chains move to the correct position... and then A's coach says a naughty word describing the call 

Since the white hat had not yet blown the RFP, we moved them back 15 yards and it was still 1st and 10, not 1st and 25.

[NVFOA_Ump]

I actually had this happen recently.

2nd and 10, A runs a sweep, and WR A81 holds 11 yards downfield as the runner goes past him. Marking the penalty yardage still resulted in A having a first down, just not as far downfield as A would like. We mark off the penalty, the chains move to the correct position... and then A's coach says a naughty word describing the call 

Since the white hat had not yet blown the RFP, we moved them back 15 yards and it was still 1st and 10, not 1st and 25.

But according to your description the chains should not have moved on the original 2nd and 10 play.

The result of enforcing this live ball holding foul should have resulted in a replay of 2nd down, therefore 2nd and 9 for A.  If penalty was 11 yards down field, behind the end of the run, enforcement was 10 yards back from the spot of the foul. The chains should not have moved.  We would then enforce the USC, back another 15 yards and the result would be 2nd and 24 for A.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Proper terminology is: "Before the line to gain has been established", or "After the line-to gain has been established." Those are what is used to know if you have 1/10, or 1/25.

The rule was clearly posted above but we NEVER make the ball ready after a play where there is a penalty enforcement until the "line to gain has been established" when the LTG changes AND the chains are actually set.  The chains represent the line to gain and clearly show both teams and the fans where that line to gain is actually located.  When I would explain to a coach the "line to gain ...." language they always were perplexed.  They understood the concept 100% better if we simply described the chains being set to determine the 1st down target.  Most of us know the rules, most of them don't.  A simple fact of life.

[lawdog]

But according to your description the chains should not have moved on the original 2nd and 10 play.

The result of enforcing this live ball holding foul should have resulted in a replay of 2nd down, therefore 2nd and 9 for A.  If penalty was 11 yards down field, behind the end of the run, enforcement was 10 yards back from the spot of the foul. The chains should not have moved.  We would then enforce the USC, back another 15 yards and the result would be 2nd and 24 for A.

Coach maybe wouldn't have said the naughty word if they knew the rules and didn't give the other team a first down they shouldn't have had...........

[Ralph Damren]

Welcome, UmpnRef, to our forum. May you find it both informative and enjoyable.

The rationale behind this rule is if the foul occurred after the ball became dead, the action did not effect the result of the play. Same holds true on a USC foul with the childhood saying: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me  ". The tricky one that I've seen us fumble on .....
(1) A team in a hurry-op offense gains a first down;
(2) team rushes up to LOS and snaps ball BEFORE RFP;
(3)  for DOG;
(4) Stakes would be reset to 1/10 after enforcement, NOT 1/15 as foul occurred BEFORE RFP.
                           

[zebrastripes]

Welcome, UmpnRef, to our forum. May you find it both informative and enjoyable.

The rationale behind this rule is if the foul occurred after the ball became dead, the action did not effect toe result of the play. Same holds true on a USC foul with the childhood saying: "Sticvks and stones may break my bones, but names can never hurt me  ". The tricky one that I've seen us fumble on .....
(1) A team in a hurry-op offense gains a first down;
(2) team rushes up to LOS and snaps ball BEFORE RFP;
(3)  for DOG;
(4) Stakes would be reset to 1/10 after enforcement, NOT 1/15 as foul occurred BEFORE RFP.
                           

In the :40 play clock era, is this play really relevant? A doesn’t have to wait on the ready for play whistle anymore.

[Fatso]

In the :40 play clock era, is this play really relevant? A doesn’t have to wait on the ready for play whistle anymore.

If a penalty was enforced, they do need to wait for the RFP whistle.

[zebrastripes]

If a penalty was enforced, they do need to wait for the RFP whistle.

Agreed, but the play in question didn’t say anything about a foul or penalty stopping the :40 play clock.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Agreed, but the play in question didn’t say anything about a foul or penalty stopping the :40 play clock.

The subject of this thread is PENALTY ENFORCEMENT - ALL PENALTIES by rule stop BOTH the game clock and the play clock without exception.  After the penalty is completed, the game clock status is based on the end of the previous down, and the play clock is 25 seconds in almost all cases.

[zebrastripes]

The subject of this thread is PENALTY ENFORCEMENT - ALL PENALTIES by rule stop BOTH the game clock and the play clock without exception.  After the penalty is completed, the game clock status is based on the end of the previous down, and the play clock is 25 seconds in almost all cases.

In Ralph’s play, which was the play I was quoting in my response, there was no penalty.

And penalties do not stop the clock - fouls do.

[NVFOA_Ump]

In Ralph’s play, which was the play I was quoting in my response, there was no penalty.

And penalties do not stop the clock - fouls do.

In Ralph's play there is 1st down which stops the game clock and there is in fact a silent RFP which is the wind the clock after the stoppage to reset the chains and spot the ball.  And the rest of the comment is factually incorrect.  There is no effective difference to the masses between foul and penalty.  The DIFFERENCE is whether the penalty for the foul is ENFORCED.

[ncwingman]

But according to your description the chains should not have moved on the original 2nd and 10 play.

The result of enforcing this live ball holding foul should have resulted in a replay of 2nd down, therefore 2nd and 9 for A.  If penalty was 11 yards down field, behind the end of the run, enforcement was 10 yards back from the spot of the foul. The chains should not have moved.  We would then enforce the USC, back another 15 yards and the result would be 2nd and 24 for A.

Yeah, I said that wrong - it was 11 yards beyond the LTG. After the 10 yard penalty, the ball was 1 yard beyond the original LTG.

[Fatso]

Agreed, but the play in question didn’t say anything about a foul or penalty stopping the :40 play clock.

I thought you were referring to original play, but I see what you mean about Ralph's example.