4th down foul as time expires

[dammitbobby]

Had this happen tonight in a 6-man junior high game.

4/25 at A20, 4th quarter, 0:23 seconds left, GC stopped. A snaps the ball, and A12 runs around the backfield, looking for an open receiver. As A12 throws a forward pass to A88, A54 is flagged for holding at the A20. The pass is complete, and A88 runs around some more, and then breaks free and runs to the EZ for for a touchdown. Time expires as the runner reaches the goal line.

Ruling?

If B declines the foul, the the score counts, and the game is over. If B accepts the foul, we would mark off the foul, run one untimed down, and A would simply kneel to run out the clock.

Is there any way B could get the ball with an untimed down? I don't think there is... but this result seems a little unfair to B, where A isn't effectively penalized either way, especially since (in theory) had A not committed the holding foul, B would have gotten the ball back, with time still on the clock. Am I missing something, or is this a case of them's the breaks, sorry about your bad luck?

[ElvisLives]

Had this happen tonight in a 6-man junior high game.

4/25 at A20, 4th quarter, 0:23 seconds left, GC stopped. A snaps the ball, and A12 runs around the backfield, looking for an open receiver. As A12 throws a forward pass to A88, A54 is flagged for holding at the A20. The pass is complete, and A88 runs around some more, and then breaks free and runs to the EZ for for a touchdown. Time expires as the runner reaches the goal line.

Ruling?

If B declines the foul, the the score counts, and the game is over. If B accepts the foul, we would mark off the foul, run one untimed down, and A would simply kneel to run out the clock.

Is there any way B could get the ball with an untimed down? I don't think there is... but this result seems a little unfair to B, where A isn't effectively penalized either way, especially since (in theory) had A not committed the holding foul, B would have gotten the ball back, with time still on the clock. Am I missing something, or is this a case of them's the breaks, sorry about your bad luck?

First, you don’t specify the score when the down started, but, when you say Team A would simply take a knee after the penalty is enforced certainly makes us think that Team A was ahead in score.
Secondly, that down took 23 seconds to play? Seriously?
Thirdly, why do you say B would have got the ball back, and with time on the clock? If the foul had not happened does not at all mean that Team A would not have at least got a first down, if not scored. There is no assurance that Team B would have got a turnover on downs. As it was, Team A was penalized and the score was canceled.
No, there is no way for Team B to the get the ball in this scenario. And,I don’t think the rules committee would be inclined to change the rules to do anything more about this. Team B shouldn’t have been behind in score, if they didn’t want to lose in this scenario.
Yep. Sorry Charlie. Them’s the breaks.

[dammitbobby]

First, you don’t specify the score when the down started, but, when you say Team A would simply take a knee after the penalty is enforced certainly makes us think that Team A was ahead in score.
Secondly, that down took 23 seconds to play? Seriously?
Thirdly, why do you say B would have got the ball back, and with time on the clock? If the foul had not happened does not at all mean that Team A would not have at least got a first down, if not scored. There is no assurance that Team B would have got a turnover on downs. As it was, Team A was penalized and the score was canceled.
No, there is no way for Team B to the get the ball in this scenario. And,I don’t think the rules committee would be inclined to change the rules to do anything more about this. Team B shouldn’t have been behind in score, if they didn’t want to lose in this scenario.
Yep. Sorry Charlie. Them’s the breaks.

Just to clarify, we had this play, minus the foul, and we were discussing it afterwards, how we would have handled it. 100% this play took 23 seconds; Team A called a TO, that's why we had a dead game clock. Buzzer went off as he was crossing the GL. And yes, Team A was ahead by 1 or 2 points.

And yes, I was making assumptions, that A would not have reached LTG, however improbable that might be (6 man... junior high... who knows what's going to happen, .)  Just a mental exercise to make sure I am ready should something like that come up again.

[ElvisLives]

I am dumbfounded that a 6-player JUNIOR HIGH down lasted 23 seconds. Did you break out the lawn chair and sit for a while? 
I've seen downs last 10-15 seconds, with long runs involved. But 23? Wow.

[Cosmokramer1]

Had this happen tonight in a 6-man junior high game.

4/25 at A20, 4th quarter, 0:23 seconds left, GC stopped. A snaps the ball, and A12 runs around the backfield, looking for an open receiver. As A12 throws a forward pass to A88, A54 is flagged for holding at the A20. The pass is complete, and A88 runs around some more, and then breaks free and runs to the EZ for for a touchdown. Time expires as the runner reaches the goal line.

Ruling?

If B declines the foul, the the score counts, and the game is over. If B accepts the foul, we would mark off the foul, run one untimed down, and A would simply kneel to run out the clock.

Is there any way B could get the ball with an untimed down? I don't think there is... but this result seems a little unfair to B, where A isn't effectively penalized either way, especially since (in theory) had A not committed the holding foul, B would have gotten the ball back, with time still on the clock. Am I missing something, or is this a case of them's the breaks, sorry about your bad luck?

One minor thing to chime in on.  You stated time expires as the runner reaches the goal line.  You then say "B would have gotten the ball back, with time still on the clock" had A not committed the holding foul.  How would have B gotten the ball back if time expires on the scoring play?

Additionally, if/when you do run the untimed down, B can end up with the ball and a score on that played down if A is careless with the ball.  Yes, they most likely would take a knee.  But we are still dealing with teenagers who can be stupid. 

[dammitbobby]

One minor thing to chime in on.  You stated time expires as the runner reaches the goal line.  You then say "B would have gotten the ball back, with time still on the clock" had A not committed the holding foul.  How would have B gotten the ball back if time expires on the scoring play?

Additionally, if/when you do run the untimed down, B can end up with the ball and a score on that played down if A is careless with the ball.  Yes, they most likely would take a knee.  But we are still dealing with teenagers who can be stupid.

first point - was an assumption on my part, that if A didn't commit the hold, that B would have been able to tackle him with time on the clock still.

second point - that was pointed out to me at lunch today when we were discussing. IMO this also highlights that I think taking a knee should be declarable, in the sense that while A must still protect the ball, they shouldn't have B players teeing off on them.  But, that 's a discussion for a later day.

[dammitbobby]

I am dumbfounded that a 6-player JUNIOR HIGH down lasted 23 seconds. Did you break out the lawn chair and sit for a while? 
I've seen downs last 10-15 seconds, with long runs involved. But 23? Wow.

Slow developing is an understatement, . They probably went 60 yards for the score; they probably at least that if not more just running sideline to sideline before they threw the ball. It was one of those situations where even though it's a busted play initially, it still puts you on high alert for things like BSB, BIB, etc.