No try?

[NTXRef]

Texas HS playoffs - Coppell vs. Trinity on TV here in Dallas.   On the last play of the game, Trinity scores to go up 41-40 (only lead of the game).   And the extra point.....   teams and fans on the field after the TD, no officials to be found.

Rule 8-3-2-a
If a touchdown is scored during a down in which time in the fourth period expires, the try shall not be attempted UNLESS the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

How about a defensive return of block kick or fumble for 2 points?   Does nobody remember Herman Edwards??

[TxSkyBolt]

Definitely kicked that one....

[ornery1]

Must be one of those 5 crews from Houston that have received more playoff assignments than 10 of the chapters in the state that 504coach so passionately drools over. Just goes to show you that even Big Bad Houston can screw up just like all the "little chapters in the state". TASO must be so proud. LMAO!!!!!

[Arbitrator]

Must be one of those 5 crews from Houston that have received more playoff assignments than 10 of the chapters in the state that 504coach so passionately drools over. Just goes to show you that even Big Bad Houston can screw up just like all the "little chapters in the state". TASO must be so proud. LMAO!!!!!

 

I would think in our long and illustrious officiating careers, we've all made mistakes; some that we shudder to think about and others that are minor in comparison. I've made them. You have made them. And yes, you   Ornery have made them too. That is at least, if you have worked anywhere close to the number of games that a typical Houston Chapter crew works in a given season.


In a situation where the field has been flooded by fans and there is no reasonable expectation that it can be cleared to safely run the PAT, I would then think that the Referee could invoke the elastic rule of declaring the game over, largely in the name of a mere safety factor. A reasonable person would at least think that they could at least be able to hang their hat on that. In any event, it doesn't exactly sound like they have messed up nearly as bad as the UIL has messed up in the Courtroom! Well,   Ornery, you'll always have those UIL apples to polish, not that you haven't already been polishing them for a very long time now!

The fact of the matter was that this Houston Crew was selected by a mutual decision of these coaches to work this game and you had to either buy a ticket or flash your UIL card to get in, or sit in front of your television screen, thereby most visibly demonstrating the sad and apparent fact that you weren't exactly working somwhere between the white lines last night for some unknown reason! So why don't you just get over your envy and try getting a life!  

[504coach]

Must be one of those 5 crews from Houston that have received more playoff assignments than 10 of the chapters in the state that 504coach so passionately drools over. Just goes to show you that even Big Bad Houston can screw up just like all the "little chapters in the state". TASO must be so proud. LMAO!!!!!

Ornery I don't know what I am more proud of your ability to comprehend the statistics I placed on another thread, or the fact that you talked about me and did not mention my "BUTT".  I am glad those counseling sessions at the First Baptist Church of the lovely Dancing Monkey have helped you control those feelings.

[TXMike]

Not a huge "miss".  A wise official would have told Trinity to just take a knee and it would have been over. 

I have never been a fan of requiring a PAT just to give Team B a chance to score.  That is not the true intention of the PAT although I know it is required. 

Ornery - give me some film of any game you (or the best officials in your chapter) were involved in and I wager I coulkd find a much larger miss

[ornery1]

I agree that this was a very minor "miss". My point is that if you have a crew from Houston that has worked more games than 10 other entire chapters, you should expect more. I applaud NTXref for even bringing to light that a Houston crew can make a mistake, albeit a small one. If this same mistake would have been made by a smaller chapter, Houston and others would be stating how it goes to show you that the smaller chapters can't work the big games. You see they can dish it out but they can't take it.

I'm just tired of Houston's attitude and arrogance that they are the only "REAL" chapter in the state. There are a lot of crews from the smaller chapters that are really good and probably sitting at home this week and probably haven't had more games than 10 other entire chapters.

[TXMike]

I agree that this was a very minor "miss". My point is that if you have a crew from Houston that has worked more games than 10 other entire chapters, you should expect more. I applaud NTXref for even bringing to light that a Houston crew can make a mistake, albeit a small one. If this same mistake would have been made by a smaller chapter, Houston and others would be stating how it goes to show you that the smaller chapters can't work the big games. You see they can dish it out but they can't take it.

I'm just tired of Houston's attitude and arrogance that they are the only "REAL" chapter in the state. There are a lot of crews from the smaller chapters that are really good and probably sitting at home this week and probably haven't had more games than 10 other entire chapters.

  I have never heard one Houston zebra say they are the only "REAL" chapter in the state.  I have heard them gice reasons why they get so many playoff games and the reasons I heard make sense.  Everyone here knows there are tons of great officials who will not be working the next 2 weeks because chances are none of us will be working so we know it from personal experience.  And I doubt anyone who is working on the last week would be so ignorant as to assume or say that vecause they are working they are the best in the state or maybe even the best in their chapter

[texref]

I agree that this was a very minor "miss". My point is that if you have a crew from Houston that has worked more games than 10 other entire chapters, you should expect more. I applaud NTXref for even bringing to light that a Houston crew can make a mistake, albeit a small one. If this same mistake would have been made by a smaller chapter, Houston and others would be stating how it goes to show you that the smaller chapters can't work the big games. You see they can dish it out but they can't take it.

I'm just tired of Houston's attitude and arrogance that they are the only "REAL" chapter in the state. There are a lot of crews from the smaller chapters that are really good and probably sitting at home this week and probably haven't had more games than 10 other entire chapters.

I have been fortunate to work with and know many Houston Chapter officials. I have never seen an attitude that they were the "only REAL chapter" in the state. Most of the crews I have seen work were well prepared, hard working crews. The crew that worked last night's Wylie/John Tyler game did as good of job officiating as I have seen in a while. At the end of the day the Coach's decide who works their games and many of them around the state (outside of Houston) have a lot of confidence in the crews from the Houston Chapter. Doesn't make them superior to any other Chapter big or small. Congratulations to them for building a reputation built on preformance. It is something we should all work to emulate.

[TexDoc]

Texas HS playoffs - Coppell vs. Trinity on TV here in Dallas.   On the last play of the game, Trinity scores to go up 41-40 (only lead of the game).   And the extra point.....   teams and fans on the field after the TD, no officials to be found.

Rule 8-3-2-a
If a touchdown is scored during a down in which time in the fourth period expires, the try shall not be attempted UNLESS the point(s) would affect the outcome of the game.

How about a defensive return of block kick or fumble for 2 points?   Does nobody remember Herman Edwards??

Maybe its just me, but I don't think its a big deal.  Probably would have done the same, wrongly maybe.

[HoustonUmp]

Now for the rest of the story.

After the touchdown with no time left on clock, the Trinity sideline and fans rushed the field.  There was a flag in the corner of the endzone where 3 of the officials were standing, watching the action and making sure that a Coppell player who was on the ground was not injured but just distraught over losing a very tough game.  This flag was thrown for excessive celebration.  After surveying the scene and the improbability of safely clearing the field, plus the entering of the field by the Coppell coaching staff to congratulate the Trinity coaches (a sign of concession in the eyes of the crew), the flag was picked up and the referee declared the game over and left the field.

Did the crew know that by rule the try should be attempted?  Yes.  Did the crew use better judgement because of the circumstances to "waive" this rule in this instance?  Yes.  Was the crew correct?  That is up to each individual to determine themselves.  Remember, making a rulebook decision when you are not a part of the scene is sometimes very different from the decision that must be made on the field at that time.

[TXMike]

I wonder if the Coppell coach even knew the try was mandatory?  It would have been nice if the crew had at least checked with him to see if he wanted to continue.  The rule is there for a reason.  If we can't get 2000 people off teh field and run the play how the heck could colleges get 20,000 off?   It is not worth losing sleep over but should be something we all think about going forward.

[NTXRef]

I mention this just because you never know.  That's why I mentioned Herman Edwards - did anybody see that happening.   I realize that it was 99.9% (or more) chance it didn't matter, but you never know.  1 second back on the clock for Allen/SLC last year allowed Allen to score TD and go into OT.  A full field to clear is not an excuse.   It is not our job to determine if we think it would change the outcome, we got to give both teams every chance to win based on the rules given us.  Clear the field, administer the penalty, and make them take a knee (or bobble the snap and .....).

[JasonTX]

I had this situation happen in a non-district game early in the year.  The winning team was celebrating and the losing team was coming onto the field to shake hands.  I wasn't even paying much attention to the point difference of 2 pts, but then I realized we have to attempt the try.  I asked the losing coach if he wanted to line up his defense and he did.  I told the winning coach we had to run the try, and he asked if he could take a knee.  After getting 2 of my co-officials, who were walking into the locker room,  they lined up winning team took a knee and then had their second celebration.  It took us about 3 minutes to clear the field so it wasn't all that difficult.  It looked odd and I'm sure nobody knew any difference that we had to attempt the try, but we just wanted to make it right.

[Etref]

Maybe its just me, but I don't think its a big deal.  Probably would have done the same, wrongly maybe.

 

A lot of things in football are technically not correct that we let slide or do not call. While this would "potentially" change the outcome, I do not see how Trinity would do anything but take a knee and it would be over anyway. Hell, if I was the coach I would have the QB on his knee when he took the hand to hand snap.

[gigmax]

Not a huge "miss".  A wise official would have told Trinity to just take a knee and it would have been over. 

I have never been a fan of requiring a PAT just to give Team B a chance to score.  That is not the true intention of the PAT although I know it is required. 

Ornery - give me some film of any game you (or the best officials in your chapter) were involved in and I wager I coulkd find a much larger miss

Mike,
         The only problem here is you actually have to have a game in order to have game film.  Last time I checked they didn't run film of the chain crew.  the uil might, but I don't think they are even picking up chains at this point.  Ornery, it's not that Houston is arrogant, but you are eat up with jealousy.  The majority of the games Houston gets are coaches picks. that speaks volumes.

[Tommyjohn44]

I hope to someday pull chains for a Houston crew. 

[Joe Stack]

First, the Herm Edwards play wasn't on a try. It was the Giants trying to run out the clock from their own end of the field pre-victory formation days. I either watched that game live or saw the immediate replay on the NFL Today (Musberger days). Second, I don't see this as a mistake, even a minor one. There's no point in making a team run a play when one isn't necessary -- which is why we often wait a few more seconds until the clock is under 25 to blow the ready, when ordinarily we would have blown it earlier. Same difference. The chances of Coppell recovering the fumble AND returning for a TD are ZERO, and the chances of an injury are slight, but greater than zero.

[NTXRef]

First, the Herm Edwards play wasn't on a try. It was the Giants trying to run out the clock from their own end of the field pre-victory formation days. I either watched that game live or saw the immediate replay on the NFL Today (Musberger days). Second, I don't see this as a mistake, even a minor one. There's no point in making a team run a play when one isn't necessary -- which is why we often wait a few more seconds until the clock is under 25 to blow the ready, when ordinarily we would have blown it earlier. Same difference. The chances of Coppell recovering the fumble AND returning for a TD are ZERO, and the chances of an injury are slight, but greater than zero.

You missed the point on Herm Edwards.   What do you think the Giants thought about their chances of winning that night.   The point is that you never know what might happened, even on the wildest circumstances.    If you consider ignoring the rules for even a minute chance of making a difference, not a mistake, I have no answer for that.

On another note, good for you Jason.  However, the rules says that you only play it, if the try potentially makes a difference.  3 or more points and you head off the field.

[JasonTX]

First, the Herm Edwards play wasn't on a try. It was the Giants trying to run out the clock from their own end of the field pre-victory formation days. I either watched that game live or saw the immediate replay on the NFL Today (Musberger days). Second, I don't see this as a mistake, even a minor one. There's no point in making a team run a play when one isn't necessary -- which is why we often wait a few more seconds until the clock is under 25 to blow the ready, when ordinarily we would have blown it earlier. Same difference. The chances of Coppell recovering the fumble AND returning for a TD are ZERO, and the chances of an injury are slight, but greater than zero.

I wouldn't say ZERO.  I've had team B recover a muffed snap on a kneel down play before.  When that ball is rolling on the ground, it wouldn't take much to scoop and score. 

[The Ref Thats Lef]

I fully understand the crews dilemma but if the NCAA and UIL did not want the last play to be run then they would not have a rule that specifically covered the situation. The rule would simply say there is no need to run a try.

I think you have to find a way to get the play played. Yes you may end up looking like over officious arses for what will likely be a take a knee play but I think this is one of those occasions when you just have to do so.

I also don't think the reaction of the losing coaches enters into your reasoning. We all spend ages on here laughing at how poor some coaches knowledge of the rules is so I don't think you can then cite their lack of knowledge as a reason for ending a game early.

Lastly, having seen the length that some teams have gone to to keep their playoff runs alive (see the West Virginia story elsewhere on the forum) you are opening up a whole can of worms that may lead you into court appearances and weeks of hassle for the sake of five minutes and going by the book.

[TXMike]

Second, I don't see this as a mistake, even a minor one. There's no point in making a team run a play when one isn't necessary -- which is why we often wait a few more seconds until the clock is under 25 to blow the ready, when ordinarily we would have blown it earlier.

What situation could there be  where the team behind is behind by 2 or less and you believe it WOULD be necessary to run the extra point attempt after time has expired?

[Zebra27]

It amazes me the level of nitpicking that this board produces. Some of you guys must absolute super refs the way you guys call out other officials....

[TXMike]

Welcome to the board.  Since you "may" be new here, some background....Most of us are not "calling anyone out".  What we are doing is sharing issues that have confronted other officials and sharing their responses.  This allows us to think now , about what might happen in the future to us, and help us be ready when the moment comes.  Not everyone here may be as experienced as you so some of us can benefit by learning from the experiences, mistakes, and victories of others. 

[Zebra27]

Well Mike, as I have perusing this board for the last few weeks of the playlets, what I have seen would be a stretch to be considered "constructive" and the tone of much of it goes so far as to be mean spirited. From a person new to this board, it looks as if some of you are combing over games just looking for something to publicly ridicule our fellow officials about. You seem like a guy that's been around given your post count but from a "newbie", it just seems like a few of you are just looking to complain.