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Author Topic: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>  (Read 27662 times)

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Offline TXMike

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The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« on: December 18, 2010, 06:13:50 PM »
NO AMERICAN FLAGS? !? ?! ??! !    WTF Waco?
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Offline williebe

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2010, 06:20:42 PM »
I agree Mike. Not gonna say what I want to say.
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Offline JDM

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2010, 07:19:33 PM »
Probably a UIL mandate. Wouldn't want the patch competing with the hats.
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WABill

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2010, 07:53:40 PM »
Sad.
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Offline drilsgt_98

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2010, 08:02:01 PM »
Good job Dallas...NO UIL hat and they are wearing a flag in the Daingerfield game.
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I enforce the law! I make split second decisions based on the books. They may not always agree but that's why I wear my own color. At the end of the day, i've made no friends, and plenty of enemies. Why do I do it? Because I know what's right and wrong. And i've seen every precedent. So while they may argue, I am always in the right.   Cliff Keen website

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 12:38:19 AM »
Sounds like I'm going to get beat up, but I would rather go without the flags -- or any patches. I'm as patriotic as the next guy. Fly your flag at every possible option, I will continue to wear my flag lapel pin, but I don't think it works well on the officials' uniform. Most teams don't wear it on their uniform. Why should we? Truly, what's the point? To tell everyone I'm patriotic? To let others know we as a unit are patriotic? Frankly, I really don't care what those we're telling would think. But flame away.

If you're solely making the argument that "its now part of the uniform..." then, I agree. But let's open a serious (and emotion free) discussion of whether the flag really belongs.
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Offline williebe

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 01:42:51 AM »
Joe not sure if you are with TASO but the mechanics manual says to have an American flag affixed to you uniform. And says that nothing i repeat no numbers of letters affixed to the hat. This is the reason. These guys need to open the manual and read it.
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WABill

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 08:58:08 AM »
Quote from: Joe Stack on December 19, 2010, 12:38:19 AM
If you're solely making the argument that "its now part of the uniform..." then, I agree. But let's open a serious (and emotion free) discussion of whether the flag really belongs.

Part of the uniform per the mechanics manual.  uil logo on hat is not.
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Offline Etref

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 06:21:07 PM »
Quote from: williebe on December 19, 2010, 01:42:51 AM
Joe not sure if you are with TASO but the mechanics manual says to have an American flag affixed to you uniform. And says that nothing i repeat no numbers of letters affixed to the hat. This is the reason. These guys need to open the manual and read it.

It was added after 9/11.

We used to have SFOA patches, volleyball had 15-20 patches, BB, etc. Jim Blackwood did away with all of the patches. The flag as I say was added after 9/11 and at the time everything had a flag on it.

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Headlinesman

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 02:56:22 AM »
Sounds as if some of you are just "huntin' boogers!"  Lest you think I'm not patriotic -  FlAg1
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Offline allen

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 09:32:45 AM »
Quote from: Joe Stack on December 19, 2010, 12:38:19 AM
Sounds like I'm going to get beat up, but I would rather go without the flags

I bet you want a 55 yard line too.  :D
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Mike L

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 11:17:49 AM »
If you look at the Uniform Flag Code of the US, we as officials really have no business having a flag on our uniforms.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 11:20:31 AM »
Just like with the rulebook, you need to look at the intent of the Flag Code.  My flag stays.
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Mike L

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 12:42:20 PM »
So does mine because it's required. I'm just saying a football officials organization is not military, police, or fire and is not an organization dedicated to patriotic endeavors (no matter how much we feel football is the true American sport). .
In fact, the wearing of a flag on a sports uniform with the potential to become soiled is specifically NOT suggested. So if something is specifically not reco'd, hanging your hat on intent to go the other way is an interesting position to take.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 12:44:33 PM by Mike L »
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Offline Etref

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 01:08:18 PM »
Well we could substitute and put on the Texas flag....................................................(part of my seccession plan) ;D
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Offline TXMike

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2010, 01:10:33 PM »
Quote from: Mike L on December 20, 2010, 12:42:20 PM
So does mine because it's required. I'm just saying a football officials organization is not military, police, or fire and is not an organization dedicated to patriotic endeavors (no matter how much we feel football is the true American sport). .
In fact, the wearing of a flag on a sports uniform with the potential to become soiled is specifically NOT suggested. So if something is specifically not reco'd, hanging your hat on intent to go the other way is an interesting position to take.

Where do you get the idea that the reason it is not recommended on athletic uniforms is so it will not get soiled?  It is certainly going to get soiled on police and military uniforms. 
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Mike L

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2010, 04:51:28 PM »
Quote from: TXMike on December 20, 2010, 01:10:33 PM
Where do you get the idea that the reason it is not recommended on athletic uniforms is so it will not get soiled?  It is certainly going to get soiled on police and military uniforms.  

From the Flag Code as posted at ushistory.org
"j. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

in combination with

"e.The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way."

perhaps the framers of the code were able to figure out the exception for the military, firemen, police over-rides the rule to not allow it to get soiled. So you can argue all you want about the soiled thing, doesn't really matter. The bottom line remains, we as officials do not fit the catefories allowed, by code, to wear the flag on our uniforms.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 04:55:05 PM by Mike L »
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Offline TXMike

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 04:53:44 PM »
Mixing apples and oranges .   Like I said....that one part clearly does not refer to the other. 
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Offline TxJim

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 06:19:58 PM »
Quote from: Mike L on December 20, 2010, 04:51:28 PM
From the Flag Code as posted at ushistory.org
"j. No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations."

in combination with

"e.The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way."

perhaps the framers of the code were able to figure out the exception for the military, firemen, police over-rides the rule to not allow it to get soiled. So you can argue all you want about the soiled thing, doesn't really matter. The bottom line remains, we as officials do not fit the catefories allowed, by code, to wear the flag on our uniforms.



It's not "a flag" but an emblem of a US flag. Understand the difference.  And as an officer with 23 years and counting of military service, I'm quite pleased that my fellow officials in Texas wear the emblem.  It's wear here is done with respect and honor, and is the intent to show national character.  I can't imagine what could possibly be objectionable to that.
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Offline TXMike

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2010, 06:23:46 PM »
Do you want to get into definitions?  The "flag" and a "replica" of the flag are different items.  Do some research on that.
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Offline Zebra27

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2010, 12:33:23 PM »
Wow, some of you have an awful lot to complain about...
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Offline Etref

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2010, 03:35:32 PM »
Quote from: Zebra27 on December 27, 2010, 12:33:23 PM
Wow, some of you have an awful lot to complain about...

Unfortunately, you are becoming one of them.......................... hEaDbAnG
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2010, 03:56:36 PM »
Quote from: Zebra27 on December 27, 2010, 12:33:23 PM
Wow, some of you have an awful lot to complain about...

Do you have anything to offer?
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Offline Zebra27

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2010, 04:33:55 PM »
What? Should I get into the flag/no flag discussion?  Oh, maybe I should chime in on the "UIL hats is an outrage" thread...where to start....
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Offline DallasLJ

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Re: The Hats May be Forgivable..BUT>>>>
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2010, 05:07:36 PM »
Quote from: Zebra27 on December 27, 2010, 04:33:55 PM
What? Should I get into the flag/no flag discussion?  Oh, maybe I should chime in on the "UIL hats is an outrage" thread...where to start....
  You should start on topics that are of interest and involve you.  The hat / not hat and some of these other Texas topics have to do with a current conflict between the state officiating organization (TASO) and the group that runs the school competitions (UIL) over control of officiating.  This topic is very specific to Texas, and is a hot button topic.  It is the reason the State Specific Board was created.

   Better spot for rules and mechanics specific issues can be found in the NCAA and Federation Specific topics, or general rules discussions. 

  What state are you in?
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